Breaking Through Barriers: Shattering Gender Bias with Amy Diehl & Leanne Dzubinski

00:01.04
debcole
Wonderful. Well, here we are, another episode of Have a Seat, Conversations with Women in the Workplace podcast. And joining me this week, I am so honored to have two guests on one call. Such a treat. This doesn't happen very often, but it's so exciting when it does. um Please let me introduce Dr. Amy Deal and Dr. Leanne Dubinsky. Thank you both for joining me today.

00:26.38
Amy Diehl
Thank you for having us.

00:28.27
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah, we're very happy to be here.

00:30.14
debcole
Absolutely. Thank you. And I'm so excited that my virtual living room is full with three bodies instead of two.

00:33.90
Amy Diehl
and

00:35.33
debcole
This is But there's so much to talk about in your areas of gender bias, especially in leadership. But today we're going to focus and just ask a few questions of Amy and Leanne around their book, Glass Walls, shattering the six gender bias barriers still holding women back at work.

00:54.11
debcole
I mean, This is why I created this podcast for women, by a woman, to talk about issues that affect us in the workplace.

00:58.57
Amy Diehl
Yeah.

01:02.00
debcole
So this is going to be a great conversation. But to kick us off, Amy and Leanne, let's get to it. we'll We'll talk about, I guess, the the most obvious, which is the glass walls.

01:13.80
debcole
For many of us, we've heard the saying glass ceilings, but not so often have we heard glass walls. Can you tell us more about what glass walls are and how they're different from the more familiar idea of the glass ceiling?

01:27.80
Amy Diehl
Yeah, well, the glass ceiling is very real and it's still very present. um But as we were doing this research and as we were writing the book, you know um we had identified you know the six primary barriers that are still holding women back at work. And what we realized is that it's more than a glass ceiling. These barriers actually form walls around women. They box women in. um They're invisible. You don't know that they're there and often until you bump into them, right?

01:55.22
Amy Diehl
um and so That's why we came up with the term glass walls to put a ah better visual um ah on our on the concept. um and and to you know Just to highlight again that its that certainly the glass ceiling is there as women move up. They will buba often still do bump into it. but But again, it's it's more of a the concept of these barriers.

02:15.93
debcole
Hmm. Hmm.

02:18.56
Amy Diehl
They just kind of box women in and attempt to keep women in their, we'll call it their supposed place and ah in a male oriented, male normed workplace.

02:31.26
debcole
So true. And it it as you're explaining that, i it's almost is it I'm sure some of that is is intentional and unintentional. Do you find that, you know, yes, there are cultures like workplace cultures that are consciously doing this and and other instances where maybe you run up against leadership who really is taken by surprise that this is what the culture that they have, you know, sort of born.

02:55.66
Amy Diehl
Yeah, it's definitely both. there are still there are There's still quite a lot of overt um overt barriers or overt bias against women in the workplace.

03:05.96
debcole
Hmm.

03:06.28
Amy Diehl
um But there's also a lot of unconscious bias, and it's things that are just sort of built into the workplace structures, the things that kind of seem like they're standard and normal.

03:17.09
Amy Diehl
um but And so people just go about their day and and you know think, oh, well, this is the way a workplace is you know so sort of supposed to work. um And that's kind of the point of our book was to call out and name and describe all of the various barriers that women were running into, um whether they're unconscious or or or conscious, um

03:46.84
Leanne Dzubinski
And I think we could add too that a lot of these things are actually present in our culture. So they're not just limited to the workplace, but you can run into them, you know, anywhere you go in our society. And so it's all interwoven together that this is our default system of how we think about men and how we think about women.

04:06.66
debcole
That's true. And it's so ingrained too. I mean, from a young age, a lot of this sort of bias is sort of just, you know, filtered in and it never really leaves if we're not educated enough about the differences.

04:16.73
Leanne Dzubinski
Right.

04:19.19
debcole
Yeah. well Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. So there are, you mentioned in your book, six main barriers um of of gender bias in the workplace. Can you maybe share just a couple of those barriers and how they show up maybe in everyday work situations?

04:37.32
Leanne Dzubinski
Sure. So one of the barriers that we heard a lot about and we still hear about all the time, we named it disproportionate constraints. and These are the pressures that constrain women to act in ways that are supportive of men and that where women get held up to unequal standards compared to men. So there these are barriers like muting women's voices when it's hard for a woman to get her voice heard in a meeting. It can be things like when her comment gets He peed it. She says something in a meeting. Nobody pays attention. Then the man down the table speaks up and everybody thinks he's brilliant, right? And we heard about this so much. So that is one way. And then women just getting interrupted or talked over, talked down. And then there's just not um not being treated with equal standards compared to men. So being held to a different performance standard. And that also showed up a lot in the and the data that we collected.

05:42.62
Leanne Dzubinski
Yes.

05:43.20
debcole
Hang in.

06:15.38
debcole
BAM. Ugh.

07:09.38
debcole
Just hearing that explanation from you both, I'm getting like, I don't know, I'm getting frustrated because it's like, look at all that we have to consider. Look, I mean, in in Kamala's case, there are so many issues and political you know maneuverings that I have to filter and maneuver and get through.

07:26.41
debcole
On top of all of that, not only do I have to prove myself as a politician or a potential CEO of this country, but now I'm being judged on my pants and the size of my heels. I mean, really? you know There are so many other things. too I mean, it's sad that we feel like we're backed into that type of a corner that we have to now add all of that to the conversation.

07:54.97
debcole
Yeah.

08:14.64
debcole
Wow.

08:25.89
debcole
Hmm.

08:37.86
Leanne Dzubinski
And let's not forget it can cost a lot of money too, right? It's time and money that have to go into this effort.

08:40.79
debcole
Yeah.

09:04.39
debcole
Mm.

09:06.11
Leanne Dzubinski
but

09:20.53
debcole
Exactly. Exactly. It's such a catch 22. Oh my goodness. And as you were saying that I was thinking about the hair and the makeup. That's just astounding. Oh my goodness. um And the money that is oh a lot of return to office mandates are starting to show up. I'm sure you two are well aware.

09:37.08
debcole
um I don't know about you, but some of the conversations I've been having with my colleagues, yes, it's centered around, okay, the commute in, you know if there's childcare, that's an issue or a multi-generational household. But the biggest part of our conversation is around, what am I going to wear again?

09:52.77
debcole
How am I gonna I've gotta go pay attention to my hair now I've gotta go reintroduce myself to my stylist because I don't you know I mean that's where it's not really much about you know oh the work itself or like rolling up our sleeves and what are we gonna you know conquer or collaborate on when we get there it's more of more these external.

10:11.85
debcole
considerations, which are all valid, but it's just as opposed to our male counterparts. I doubt, you know, my husband is like sitting there going, he's bald, you know, he shaves on purpose. So he's like, hmm, I better go and make sure, you know, my scalp is shiny with the return.

10:26.63
debcole
You know, that's not what they're focusing on. Just our focus. It seems to just be, unfortunately, on other matters that I don't know if it's fair. I don't know. Anyway, which is my two cents.

10:35.81
Leanne Dzubinski
Well, it's not fair and also it's not actually relevant to your ability to do the job.

10:40.56
debcole
Right. Thank you. Thank you.

11:07.39
debcole
Yeah.

11:25.17
debcole
Extra scrutiny. That's it. Exactly. And as you said before, I believe Leanne, it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of work I can provide.

11:32.58
Leanne Dzubinski
No. None.

11:34.59
debcole
Oh, man. Well, okay. Along those lines, you you also share how women are often expected to play supportive roles in the workplace versus again our male partners at work. um Why do you think that is and what can women do maybe to help push back against those expectations or can we or is there hope for us in that area?

12:06.29
debcole
um

13:12.33
debcole
Hmm.

14:15.89
debcole
Hmm.

14:24.15
debcole
Yeah.

15:38.29
debcole
You know, I think I've seen that on Hulu. I'm going to have to watch it. I might have saved it to my list, but just haven't hit play yet. Now I'm going to have to do that. Wow.

15:47.06
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah, so Amy's been talking about putting, on one hand, putting women who are seen as loyal and complacent into those leadership roles. And that is part of the problem. And part of it goes back to what I mentioned earlier, just about our culture and our social expectations for women are also really constructed so strongly around this idea of women as men's helpers. So another way that we saw this show up and people are talking about is what's called office housework. So even if you have equals around the table,

16:16.89
Leanne Dzubinski
how women after women reports that she's the one who's asked to get the coffee or take the notes or you know get the print that printouts ahead of time for the meeting, just do that kind of work, even if there's an administrative assistant whose job it actually is to do that kind of work, right?

16:30.01
debcole
Hmm. Hmm.

16:32.75
Leanne Dzubinski
And so these are areas where allies and women themselves can sort of push back. Amy talked about things leaders need to do, but in our book, we also talk about how allies can help and how women themselves can can sort of stand up and resist.

16:45.75
Leanne Dzubinski
and so If you're an ally and you notice that your female colleague is always getting called upon to go get the coffee for everyone, do something about it. Volunteer yourself or suggest that we start a rotation for who brings the coffee.

16:57.82
Leanne Dzubinski
There's lots of strategies. We just have to be aware, right? And if you're the woman to whom it's happening, ah you can start to take small steps. Like we had one woman tell us she literally quit taking a laptop or a pen or a notebook or anything with her to the meeting so that when they said, well, you take notes, she could say, sorry, I don't have anything with me, right?

17:15.34
debcole
smart

17:16.48
Leanne Dzubinski
So you can be a little bit creative and a little bit snarky in your pushback, right? um and But it's exhausting. Part of the problem with all these things that we're naming and calling out is that it just becomes exhausting as the woman to keep running into this thing and having to navigate it.

17:32.58
debcole
Mm hmm. Exactly. Exactly. Which is why it's so important. Books like yours are out there because that we're not alone. You're sure we're not going crazy or we're not being too sensitive.

17:43.71
Leanne Dzubinski
No.

17:43.74
debcole
It's actually, you know, yeah.

17:45.16
Leanne Dzubinski
are This is a real thing.

17:45.86
debcole
Yeah. Mm hmm. Very real. Absolutely. I see it ah play out at work as well. Well, I used to I'm remote only now, but I did, too. Yeah. Then we get up and filter out of the meeting room, out of the conference room, leaving all of the lunch stuff behind or, you know,

18:01.46
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah, right.

18:03.32
debcole
And okay, we're looking at her like, who's supposed to do what here? you Why i can't we just up and leave, you know? Yeah. So fascinating. Oh, wow. Interesting. Well, does that then play into your, but you also introduced the idea of devaluation. um Can you expand on that definition at all? It sounds like it might be kind of in the neighborhood of this same idea that we were just talking about in terms of playing the supportive roles.

18:52.54
debcole
Hmm.

19:55.29
Leanne Dzubinski
when Amy and I were writing that section of the book, the thing literally happened to me. So I went to an event and I'm there and a man asks me a question that is 100% within my area of expertise.

20:07.17
Leanne Dzubinski
And so I answer it for him. And lo and behold, he turns to my husband who knows nothing about this topic and asks him if I'm right.

20:14.96
debcole
No. Oh no.

20:16.33
Leanne Dzubinski
And I'm just sort of standing there with my mouth half hanging open. I don't know whether to laugh or, punch him, but we wrote it into the book because, you know, that's the best solution is just added more data of how this happens to women.

20:29.00
debcole
Um, I mean, it's not funny, but it's like, it's kind of like, uh, funny. I can't believe that happened to you. Funny.

20:35.03
Leanne Dzubinski
I know, but if you don't laugh, you'll cry, right? So you just have to

20:37.71
debcole
That's right. That's right.

20:50.80
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah.

20:51.48
debcole
one

21:37.72
debcole
Mm hmm. Good point. Absolutely. And if you do, if you are in the know, then then ah then addressing that is the key. Yeah.

22:32.86
debcole
Hmm.

22:37.84
debcole
Yeah.

23:10.26
debcole
Yeah, yeah, gosh. And all of this, I can see how this would play into women's confidence in the workplace. I mean, we wonder why webinars that address confidence in the workplace are so highly attended. It's instances like this of devaluation, of the assumption of the supportive role assumption. There's a lot there. Yeah, which is why, go ahead.

23:44.46
debcole
Mm.

23:49.56
Leanne Dzubinski
Right.

23:51.98
Leanne Dzubinski
Or sometimes even actively undermining. I mean, we we mentioned a little bit earlier that some of it is overt back at the beginning, right? And sometimes it is intentional. And it's fair to recognize that and name it too for what it is.

24:05.91
debcole
That's right. Name it.

24:06.53
Leanne Dzubinski
And that salary inequality would probably be one part of it.

24:08.68
debcole
Mm hmm.

24:09.98
Leanne Dzubinski
You know, women said things like, you know, organizations like to hire women because they know they get a bargain or because women will work harder for the same money. It's true.

24:27.08
Leanne Dzubinski
Right. Yes.

24:52.78
Leanne Dzubinski
Very blatant, yeah.

24:53.84
debcole
Wow. Wow. ah ah oh I'm just dumbfounded. I mean, ah goodness. How you both wrote this book and didn't run screaming from the room at the end of the day. i just Hats off. Hats off. Oh my goodness. ah Well, then talk to us a little bit about the idea of acquiescence there, um where we start to, as women, we start to internalize these barriers then, and we start to then adapt to them.

25:24.28
debcole
Um, when we realize we're doing this or when we, you know, when that, when the light bulb, I guess comes on, how can we break free from that mindset and maybe course correct a bit?

25:34.96
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah, so, we you know, we parse acquiescence out. into different types. Some of it, like women who will self blame and think the problem is their own or they will self silence.

25:46.71
Leanne Dzubinski
And we really wrote this book to help women see, like you said earlier, Deborah, it's not me. I'm not crazy.

25:52.37
debcole
Hmm.

25:52.65
Leanne Dzubinski
This is happening to all of us. And so I don't need to self blame or self silence because I'm in good company. But there's another piece of acquiescence that we actually see as strategic on the part of women.

26:04.34
Leanne Dzubinski
Sometimes it can be a strategic choice. women look around, they realize they're dealing with a whole bunch of stuff that their male colleague isn't dealing with. And they may just say, you know what, I'm not going to take that promotion, because I'm going to have to deal with so much junk. And it's not worth it for my quality of life. And that can be actually a healthy choice. It's wrong, I would say that our system puts us in that position. But for any given woman in any given moment, it could be the healthier choice. And so in that sense, acquiescence is not

26:36.05
Leanne Dzubinski
necessarily bad, but we certainly don't want and women want women to be pushed into that all the time as the only possibility. So it's kind of tricky.

28:00.96
debcole
So true. And I've heard that same sentiment, umm not same, but very much similar sentiment echoed in terms of, um, consumers, uh, you know, when you, or, or gosh, in terms of, I guess, as you mentioned, like salary and women, what they bring home, if you reduce that and you cut them off and you don't, you know, pay them what they're worth, that does not translate then out to the world where they're, because women have buying power.

28:27.59
Leanne Dzubinski
Right.

28:27.61
debcole
And so now you're limiting, right? Yeah.

28:29.62
Leanne Dzubinski
Yep. Yep.

28:32.11
debcole
I think I botched that, but you are the academics. You get what I was trying to say. right Oh, see, it's also, so for any maybe allies or partners who are listening out there, like our male counterparts or leadership who are like, you know what? I want to do better. Where, how can they, what's, what's a good way to start that? I know it's probably just a, it sounds like a heavy lift, but I'm sure there are some maybe micro steps or maybe micro mindset shifts that maybe one can start to enact.

29:01.77
Leanne Dzubinski
In the book, in every single chapter, we go into detailed ah suggestions of what leaders can do, of what allies can do, and of what women can do.

29:11.70
debcole
Great.

29:12.25
Leanne Dzubinski
and so We spell that out. and One of the things we like to say is, there's no wrong place to start.

29:16.90
debcole
Hmm.

29:17.75
Leanne Dzubinski
The only wrong thing is to do nothing. and so It does feel like a big amorphous problem, gender bias, but it's really not. We've defined and named all kinds of really specific concrete things that happen at work that make women feel marginalized. And it's really not that difficult to take the list and figure out, OK, here's a strategy to combat this thing. Here's a way to make sure everyone's voice gets heard in the meeting. And we're going to do that from now on. And even one thing like that will start to shift the culture and bring the kind of change that we want to see.

29:52.06
debcole
Amy, anything to add?

30:28.88
Leanne Dzubinski
We'll see you next week.

30:33.89
debcole
Beautifully said. Right. Yeah. Oh, beautifully said by both of you. I love that. And I love that. You're right. The book, that it doesn't just wag its finger. There are actionable steps. There are things you can do to to move the needle in that direction. Amazing. I love it. Oh, and Boss's Day just passed us by, but you know, this would be a wonderful gift. The holidays are coming. On that note, where can my listeners learn more and find out more and learn more about your book, Glass Walls?

31:43.18
debcole
Hmm.

31:57.40
debcole
Fantastic. That is great. I will have links, of course, in the show notes and Leanne, how will, how could a listener can contact you or learn more about your work?

32:05.94
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah, so probably the best place for me would be on LinkedIn. I have a profile on there and I can give you that link to post in your show notes as well.

32:09.08
debcole
Okay. and

32:13.52
debcole
Excellent. Yes, I will do that for sure. Oh, Leanne and Amy, this has just been such a great conversation. I honestly could keep you on for like much longer because I have more questions now than answers. um No, I'm kidding. But this is, thank you, I guess, from, you know, for my listener side. Thank you for writing this book, for, I guess, lifting the rock, so to speak, and really exposing us all to these gender biases and ways, though,

32:40.33
debcole
that it doesn't stop there, but ways we can actually do good now that we know better, do better. um And I really appreciate, though, your messaging that you've said you both have said a couple of times that it's not it's not us. That is the problem. It's the workplace. It's the culture and it's specifically our workplace culture that needs to wake up a little and realize that ah change is needed. Absolutely. Wow.

33:04.99
Leanne Dzubinski
yeah

33:08.83
Leanne Dzubinski
Yeah, thank you.

33:08.97
debcole
Oh, oh, yeah.

33:09.89
Leanne Dzubinski
It's been fun talking with you, Deborah.

33:11.78
debcole
It was. It was. And Leanne, your story will never I will never forget that ah ah you were. I'm going to share that. i That is. Oh, wow. but

33:21.28
Leanne Dzubinski
I have periodically complained about having to live my research, but it really does keep me going.

33:26.83
debcole
ah Exactly. Clear cut case right there.

33:29.02
Leanne Dzubinski
Very clever.

33:30.78
debcole
Oh, well, wonderful. Thank you both again. This has been a great conversation.

33:34.61
Leanne Dzubinski
Thank you.