Creating Safe Spaces: How Psychological Safety Transforms Workplaces with Author & Speaker, Minette Norman

Debra Coleman [00:00:10]:
Well, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Have A Seat conversations with women in the workplace podcast. I am your host, Deb Coleman friend. I am really excited about today's episode because we are going to chat about a topic that's so important to all of us, but I feel is not talked about enough in the workplace, which is psychological safety. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Nanette Norman, an incredible leader and consultant who's dedicated her career to helping organizations build inclusive, collaborative environments where everyone feels safe to be themselves and contribute their best work. Let me say that again. She's helping organizations build inclusive, collaborative environments where everyone feels safe to be themselves and contribute their best work. Love it. Brilliant.

Debra Coleman [00:01:06]:
Minette has a fascinating background though having spent decades leading global teams in the software industry. She's seen firsthand the challenges that come with building a culture of collaboration and inclusion, and she's made it her mission to help other leaders do better as well. Hello. Who needs to sign their leaders up for this? I know I have in the past. So in 2019, Minette decided to leave her software career behind and focus on what really matters, helping leaders create workplaces where psychological safety is the norm, not the exception. The norm, not the exception. And she didn't stop there. In February of 2023, Minette, along with Carolyn Helbig, released the psychological safety playbook, a practical guide for implementing psychological safety in the workplace.

Debra Coleman [00:01:57]:
Can we say our next boss's day gift? Yes. We can. Minette's work has been recognized in big ways too. She was named one of the most influential women in Bay Area Business and business role model of the year in the women in IT and Silicon Valley Awards. Amazing. What's most impressive to me though is her deep commitment to helping leaders create spaces where people can thrive. All caps, where people can thrive. Can you tell this is really resonating with me? So, friend, in today's conversation, we will chat about what psychological safety really means, why it's so crucial in today's workplace, and how leaders and teams can start fostering this environment right now.

Debra Coleman [00:02:43]:
So whether you're a leader, a team member, or just curious about how to make work a better place for everyone, this episode is for you. Stay tuned. Have a seat. Get comfortable. And let's dive in with miss Monette Norman. Okay. Well, welcome back to another episode of Have A Seat, Conversations with Women in the Workplace podcast. I am your host, Deb Coleman.

Debra Coleman [00:03:06]:
And today joining me, I absolutely have the honor of sitting down in my virtual Have A Seat living room with miss Minette Norman, speaker, leadership consultant, and author. Joining us today to have a brief chat on psychological safety. So important these days, especially. Thank you, Minette, for joining me today.

Minette [00:03:25]:
Thanks for inviting me, Deb.

Debra Coleman [00:03:27]:
You are more than welcome. I appreciate you taking the time. I have to admit psychological safety is such a it is it's an incredibly relevant topic today, and it's one that I admit I didn't know too much about pre 2020. But then after 2020, when it just seemed to really, like, reveal a lot of employee, like, employment culture, employee rights, equality, diversity, like, a lot of that conversation started to kick up. And when I started to hear, you know, the word psychological safety, but I admit I didn't really know too much about it. So I'm very excited to have you on to sort of school us a little bit about what that is because I'm sure a lot of my listeners may be be in the same boat as me. Like, I've heard it. Do I have it at work? What's it look like? Help us, Minette.

Debra Coleman [00:04:14]:
So thank you. This is gonna be a great conversation.

Minette [00:04:17]:
Yeah. Happy to dive into it at any level.

Debra Coleman [00:04:20]:
Absolutely. Well, 2 books in, you are definitely our expert in residence here. So, well, to kick us off, let's let's take it back just to just to a couple steps and, tell us a little bit about what made you tackle this topic. Well, in your first book, along with your, I believe you had a co author, Carolyn Helbig. Okay. What made you to decide to tackle this topic specifically, psychological safety?

Minette [00:04:48]:
It's a it's a really interesting story, actually. So I was in the corporate world for 30 years and I knew about psychological safety. So you mentioned like, it definitely came on people's radar in 2020. I became aware of it more around the 2016, 17th time frame when I was, I was in a leadership position and I was trying to get people to collaborate more. And I was just reading everything I could about healthy teams and collaborative teams. And I stumbled upon the research that Google did in 2015, the big project Aristotle, where they were looking for what makes the most high performing teams and what they discovered was that without psychological safety, you don't get any of the other benefits. And so really they discovered the importance of psychological safety for high performing teams. So I read everything I could.

Minette [00:05:36]:
Then we fast forward. I leave the corporate world in 2019. I realize I wanna learn more about psychological safety. I had read Amy Edmondson's book, The Fearless Organization. She's the most well known researcher on the topic. And in 2021, when I had started my own business in leadership consulting and speaking, I found that there was a certification program for psychological safety assessments based on Amy Edmondson's research. And I thought I'm gonna sign up for this class. That is where I met Carolyn Helbing, my co author on the Psychological Safety Playbook.

Minette [00:06:09]:
And in that class, we learned to run these assessments, but we were both frustrated because what we were really looking for was the how to information. How can I as a leader or team member create a psychologically safe workplace culture? And we did not get that from the class. And so we, long story short, we ended up writing the book we were looking for, and that was the psychological safety playbook, which came out in the beginning of 2023.

Debra Coleman [00:06:37]:
Oh, fascinating. I love that you were interested in this topic enough to just say, you know what? For me and for my my career path, I'm going to dive into this a bit more. Something must have resonated with you about that.

Minette [00:06:51]:
Well, yes. And that great question that really touches at the heart of it, which is that I was in the tech world for 30 years, 10 years as an individual contributor, 20 years in management leadership positions. And I, without even knowing the term, certainly knew the feeling of having psychological safety and often not having it. And I realized that there were teams that I was a part of that had a high level of psychological safety. And I saw what was possible when people speak up, when people don't just agree with one another, but can have healthy debate. I saw that we, first of all, we had the best outcomes. We developed the best products. And we also had a wonderful working environment where we appreciated each other for who we were.

Minette [00:07:40]:
We appreciated our differences and the fact that we didn't have to have a group think and always agree. So those were wonderful and somewhat rare moments in my career and what I realized how often I was holding back myself from speaking up or even asking a question or offering my point of view, or maybe offering a very out there idea that I thought was important, but I felt like wouldn't be welcome because we didn't have that high degree of psychological safety. And it didn't matter how high I rose in the ranks of leadership. Like I was a VP, so I was just one level down from the C suite. I had a huge mandate. I had a 1,000 people on my org chart. So I had power, I had privilege, I had all these things, and I still carefully weighed every word and every question and every remark before I opened my mouth in a staff meeting, for example, because we did not have a high degree of psychological safety in the leadership team I was a

Debra Coleman [00:08:39]:
part of. Fascinating. How much of that and I don't know if this is fair to ask, but how much of that do you can attribute to you being a woman leader in what sounds like at the time maybe was highly male dominated industry or area. Did you feel that any of that maybe come into play? Is that where the because I'm I'm kind of I latched on to the holding back and wouldn't be welcome in terms of offering input or engaging. And that, I think, is so key and so relevant to the conversations I've had with women, how they feel a lot of the times in the workplace and why they stay silent. Do you see any sorta is that the exact opposite of psychological safety? I guess that's kinda what I'm leading to.

Minette [00:09:25]:
Yeah. So definitely being a woman often the only woman in the room or few very few women in the room in a male dominated industry. I do think that as women we felt like we had to hold ourselves almost to higher standards because other people were holding us to higher standards. And I will say I would not limit that to being all just the women feel this way. I think it is anyone who feels in any way othered or marginalized that they are not part of the dominant group. So if for example, the dominant group is let us say a group of extroverted white men who all went to similar universities, anyone who doesn't fit that mold, maybe an introvert, maybe someone who has a very different socioeconomic background, maybe a woman, someone who identifies as LGBTQ plus whatever it is, someone who is neurodivergent, all of the ways that we feel different. It can be, you know, the whole leadership team is from the US and you're from another country and English isn't your first language. You feel like you have to be extra smart and extra careful on what you say.

Minette [00:10:28]:
So I think it's anyone who feels that they are just not part of the, I call it the insider's club. And it's all, it is often more male than female, especially in industries like tech. So the women do feel like they have to be very careful about what they say and they do. We, you know, I will say my female colleagues and I, we didn't wanna be branded as bitchy or, you know, we would get the aggressive label where men were called, you know, just ambitious or whatever, just assertive. We would get those labels that often are reserved for women. And so we were we were careful about it. And I think that is that is such a such a negative thing for the individuals who are affected by it, but also for the organizations because they are not benefiting from the collective wisdom of all the members of their team.

Debra Coleman [00:11:19]:
So true. God. I'm like a bobblehead over here shaking my head at everything you say. I mean, yes. That is so, so well said. Absolutely. I yeah. I just oh, we only have I could go on about that.

Debra Coleman [00:11:32]:
But that is

Minette [00:11:32]:
Oh, yes. I could do.

Debra Coleman [00:11:35]:
And you have in 2 books, so it's very exciting. So when we so we we we I love how you are giving us a a a framing for psychological safety and your own personal experience and how what kind of led you down this path. But for those who don't know and and I will definitely include myself in that, what does having psychological safety in the workplace look like? How does it show up?

Minette [00:12:00]:
Yeah. So I think, you know, let's just ground ourselves, make sure that we are clearly defining what we're talking about. So psychological safety is a group phenomenon phenomenon. So in a group setting, like let's say it's a staff that you are a part of, you believe that your voice is welcome, that you can ask a question, you can make a mistake, you can ask for help and you will not be punished, you will not be marginalized, you will not be embarrassed for doing any of those things. So what it looks like is, and in fact I always ask this question because I think it's just such a great microcosm for your culture is like, what happens in your meetings? So in a psychologically safe team, what I would say usually happens in meetings is that everyone participates more or less equally. In a team that does not have a high degree of psychological safety, what you'll get instead is 2 or 3 loud voices, and the other people remaining mostly silent. That's a sign that you probably don't have a high degree of psychological safety because not everyone is participating. And I would say another characteristic is that people do not always agree when there is a higher degree of psychological safety because they are willing to put out a different, you know, a dissenting or a divergent point of view.

Minette [00:13:17]:
As opposed to in cultures where there's not a high degree of psychological safety, people all nod their heads and agree in the room. And then what happens is they often go off and have those side conversations. So one question I ask leaders is, do you have the real conversations in the room? Or is there the meeting after the meeting where people are saying what they really think? If there is any of the that meeting after the meeting going on, we need to work on psychological safety because people do not feel comfortable that they can share the truth in front of their peers and their manager.

Debra Coleman [00:13:53]:
Gosh. So true. Oh my goodness. I've been in meetings like that. Right. After meetings. Right? The world meeting that takes place when everybody logs off. Yeah.

Debra Coleman [00:14:03]:
Fascinating. That is fascinating. So if I am a leader listening to that description just now that you gave us, and I'm thinking, oh my, I really don't think my meetings fall into that category. I think that I I don't believe my team is practicing psychologically safe safety, and I don't think I provided that safe environment. Should leaders address the elephant in the room? How would they go about maybe, you know, addressing that and and expressing their desire to want to make that change? Or is that even the right thing to do?

Minette [00:14:36]:
Oh, I do think so. I think, you know, first of all, the first step is self awareness. Right? The first step is that leader going, oh, maybe I have not created the conditions where everyone can truly speak up and I'm gonna take responsibility because everyone's watching the leader. The leader is setting the tone. So why not come out there and be human and vulnerable and real and say, look, I am noticing some dynamics in this team that I don't think are healthy and I take responsibility and I wanna change that. So that's the first step. You know, some of it may be that I am not, for example, asking for divergent points of view, or perhaps I need, I'm not asking and I'm also not responding well, if someone does offer 1, maybe I get defensive, maybe I don't fully listen to understand. So I am committing to some new behavior and I am also asking all of you to commit to this behavior with me and let's set some new rules of engagement, for example, for how we run our meetings.

Minette [00:15:34]:
So we can make sure we have these conversations in the room or the virtual room and that everyone can fully participate, what would that look like? What tools maybe do we need to use that we're not using to make sure we literally hear all the voices and let's check-in regularly because I think you can't, and I, unfortunately people love to say like, this is a safe space, say anything, but you don't know that that is true until you've witnessed that there are no negative repercussions for speaking up, for example, or for challenging someone else. So we have to practice it, we have to be consistent about it, and we have to keep revisiting, how is this working and are we making progress? What could we still learn? What could we do differently? And I think what's powerful about that, coming from the leader, is the leader is admitting like, like I don't have all the answers, I'm trying to do better. I care about this deeply and we're gonna learn together. And so let's really craft something in terms of agreements on how we might work together better.

Debra Coleman [00:16:34]:
And have you seen success with this in in teams that you've worked with? Have you seen this put to practice?

Minette [00:16:41]:
I have. I have. And and, you know, it's it's very interesting that it's often small shifts that make huge differences. So in the, for example, in the psychological safety playbook that Caroline and I wrote together, I've been doing work with a team over the course of a year on psychological safety. And when I went back to them after my first engagement with them and said like, what's different now? They've been putting just a few things into practice. And if, you know, just a few examples. One is when leaders ask the question, what am I missing? It's a simple question, but it's one they don't necessarily often ask. When they ask what am I missing, what they're doing is they are giving permission to for people to say, like, you haven't thought of something important or I see something very differently.

Minette [00:17:24]:
So one team that I've been working with, they said, you know, I thought my team was actually telling me what was on their mind and if they didn't agree with me, but that I noticed as soon as I started regularly asking the question, what am I missing? Then people started speaking up. So I had made an assumption that wasn't true. So that that's one example. And then another example is that, you know, one of the things that really is a hindrance and very damaging to psychological safety is when we have a defensive reaction and we lash out at someone because someone criticized our idea and we make them feel stupid or bad for doing that. So, you know, that's a practice in really slowing down, not reacting automatically, but taking a pause, taking a breath, and then coming back once our mind has calmed down, when our brain has literally calmed down, then we can have a nice interaction and ask a question or just say like I need a moment to collect myself before I respond. When people do this, they say that it makes an incredible difference in the dynamics because people stop being so on guard and so worried and fearful that they're about to get, you know, basically publicly humiliated or yelled at in public and they see like, oh, this person is really just trying to stay with me, listen, stay as calm as we can and and move forward. And and, you know, it's just small things, small things like that. But I have seen what happens, you know, when you really put all of these or some of these things into practice is that now you start to hear from people you never heard from.

Minette [00:19:01]:
And often those people who had remained silent are the ones with the most innovative ideas that your team needs, but that were not being heard because that person was shy or didn't feel that their voice was welcome or they were honestly getting talked over in a meeting. And this was something I learned myself when I was leading a team. I had a very, very introverted, quiet team member who turned out to have really game changing ideas for our department. And And it was only after 1 on 1 conversations with him and hearing him out and he gradually started to believe that I wanted to hear what he had to say, then he could share those with the larger group. But he was not sharing those ideas because he didn't feel that either he was ready or that the team was ready to hear them.

Debra Coleman [00:19:49]:
What a beautiful that is a beautiful moment. That is good. That is leadership. Right? Right. So bravo to you for doing that. That is amazing. And, you know, a few things kicked up for me in that just spot on share. I really love how you, outlined or framed it that it's a it's really a work in progress.

Debra Coleman [00:20:10]:
It's a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah. You can't, right, you can't hop into one Zoom meeting. Okay. We're all gonna be psychologically safe. Okay. Next agenda item. You know? Wait.

Debra Coleman [00:20:17]:
Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Hold on. And it's I I also love that you pointed out that it really is a team as in the leader and everyone else's effort. Like, it's it's not just up to the leader to do this. It's not just up to the individual contributors.

Debra Coleman [00:20:33]:
It's it's really everyone sort of taking part, and noticing this. And and I and I love that you you also pointed out that everybody kinda goes at their own pace, like that one, you know, employee you had. Well, that's okay. He eventually came around when he felt safe enough to do so when because you provided that environment, and it seemed like after several conversations, things happened. The needle moved. And so I I I appreciate that you outlined those very important facts. I think from my experience, you know, leaders, they they hear talk like DEI and psychological safety, and and they either take 2 routes. Either they are all in and they go and get the psychological safety playbook by Minette and Carolyn, or they invite Minette in to speak or, you know, I mean, like, they're they're really there.

Debra Coleman [00:21:15]:
Okay. I wanna make these changes or they shy away maybe from fear or uncertainty or just, you know, they're just not educated on what that actually means. And so it's really nice to kind of you're you're you're putting it in a way that's you know what? It's doable. Like you said, take a breath. We're all in this together. You can get there. Just be you know, just with a little commitment from both sides, we can get there together. I like that messaging.

Minette [00:21:39]:
You know, what you just said is so so true and something I talk about a lot, especially so so just to maybe put a little context, I think that you just mentioned DEI and I believe that psychological safety foundation of inclusion. I think that people do not get to that feeling of inclusion and belonging unless they feel psychologically safe. So that's my, the way I make that relationship. And what you said is so true that there are leaders who, you know, just dive in boldly and say like, I don't know all the answers, I don't have all the answers, but I feel that this work is important. I'm gonna get some help, I'm gonna hire people, I'm gonna bring in outside consultants, whatever it is, and I'm going to do this work even though I know it's a journey, right? And those are the people I wanna work with, and I want I hope there are more and more of those. And to your point, there are people who are just very uncomfortable by all of this material because it is a lot. I mean, no one's an expert in all of this, and and, you know, it's it's fraud, it's there's all sorts of stuff around DEI and inclusion and psychological safety, all these things. And and my feeling about it is that first of all, I don't wanna shame anyone into doing the right thing.

Minette [00:22:46]:
I want them to know that it's the right thing. And there's lots of evidence that in psychologically safe and inclusive teams, performance goes up, innovation goes up, employee well-being goes up, mental health issues go down. So like all the business results that come from this, it's not like we're just pursuing psychological safety because it feels good, it's because of what it enables. And so what I encourage leaders and team members to realize is that we all play a role and we don't have to relearn everything that we do, that small behavioral changes can make a big difference, and that we can just make continuous progress and keep learning and we don't have to get it right because there is no right, and we're all human. And that's I think what people want from one another in the workplace. They want empathy, they want to be working with fellow human beings, not robots. And so I think, the more we can really dive into the fact that we are human, we are imperfect, we are works in progress, but we're all trying to do better together. I think that's that really moves the needle.

Debra Coleman [00:23:53]:
Oh, I love that. That right there. That is the quote right there. We are all human. We're all in this together. And yes. So true. Absolutely true.

Debra Coleman [00:24:03]:
And and like we touched on in the beginning of our conversation, especially in this day and age when it really seems like the rock has been lifted and we're really seeing what lies underneath. And some of it's good. Some of it needs a little work, but at least the conversations are starting, finally. You know? Or maybe increasing. Maybe they've always been there, but they just haven't really had the spotlight or showcased as as much as they seem to be now. And, you know, that's exciting too. Wow. Amazing.

Debra Coleman [00:24:30]:
So we've we've spoken about leaders and and some things and the way they can maybe, you know, frame this and look at this from a different angle. Talk to us if you wouldn't mind just for a minute about, individual contributors. If we on the other side of that. So if we see our leadership trying to make strides in this area and really giving it a concerted effort, what can we do as ICs to help, help in that effort and to help maintain that or to help others feel psychologically safe?

Minette [00:24:59]:
I think that's such an important question too because everyone as I said, everyone plays a role whether you are in a leadership management position or you're an individual contributor. And so I think if you are in IC, first of all, you can give some positive feedback to your leader. I mean, we think about the fact that feedback is important and we all thrive on positive feedback. When you are in a leadership position, you often get very little positive feedback. You often hear what you're doing wrong or you hear nothing at all. But as an ICU, you can say, I really appreciate that you're paying attention to this. This is important to us and I'm gonna do my part. And so I think, you know, let the leader know that you've recognized it, you've seen it and that you appreciate it.

Minette [00:25:41]:
And then what you can do is that, you know, because it is really psychological safety is a team phenomenon and a feeling in a team, you can listen to your colleagues. You can respond in a positive way. You can, you know, I would say get curious, get curious to understand what the people, maybe you don't even like all your colleagues, you don't have to like them all. But get curious to know like, what's their thinking, what makes them tick? And maybe there's something that they're really good at that you didn't even know and you're really good at something they didn't know. And you can start to really tap into your collective powers as a team. So listen, get curious and make sure that others, I think you can also really be an ally if you notice, for example, that one of your colleagues is not speaking up. Like maybe you feel fairly comfortable speaking up, but you're noticing that there's someone else in the room who's not speaking up or who's getting interrupted. And then you can say, can we hold on a second? You know, I just noticed that Deb, for example, Deb was trying to say something and she's not being heard.

Minette [00:26:46]:
So can we give the floor to Deb for a moment? That is such a kind and thoughtful thing and I've had people do that for me when I was struggling to be heard and I was really grateful. So be a great ally to people who maybe are not having their voices heard or getting interrupted or getting dismissed, and say, I really wanna hear what they have to say. So those are those are a few ideas. And I think just, you know, to to really show up yourself and own your power, even as an individual contributor, you have more power than you know because you are affecting the experiences of the people you work with day in and day out, whether in meetings, in emails, on chats, whatever it is, and like just to be a be a great human being to them.

Debra Coleman [00:27:30]:
Ah, you are affecting the experiences of others you work with. That is so true and wonderful advice. Really inclusive advice. I love that. And it doesn't take much. What you offered yeah. Very simple, little actions which could produce amazing results on the other end. And I love the whole pay it forward vibe.

Debra Coleman [00:27:49]:
If I witness someone doing that, it might motivate me to do that in kind. Like, right back mhmm. Oh, excellent advice, Minette. Thank you for that. I well, I see how you were the most influential woman in the Bay Area business. It was such good times. You I have to say your manner and the way you explain things and engage is is so open. And I I really appreciate that you are not talking at us, but you're talking with us and just sort of helping bringing us along this psychological safety journey.

Debra Coleman [00:28:21]:
I truly appreciate that. That's amazing. Oh, such great conversation. I wish I wish I could keep you on longer, but I I wanna be true to the time we have together. But I I really just am so appreciative of you coming on and having this conversation with me and helping me and my listeners just understand psychological safety a bit better. If we are interested in learning more about you, about your books, the boldly inclusive leader and the psychological safety playbook, and maybe as well as learn how we may be in touch with you to maybe come to our organizations and and continue the conversation. Where can my listeners find you to learn more?

Minette [00:28:58]:
Thank you for asking. Just go to my website, minettenorman. Com. There's free downloads. There's a free chapter from my book. You can get resources. You can get in touch with me. So it's minettenorman.com.

Debra Coleman [00:29:12]:
Ah, nice and easy. I love that. And I know you are on LinkedIn. I think we've connected. So that's all I want.

Minette [00:29:17]:
I am also on LinkedIn. And I love, you know, I love speaking engagements. I love workshops. I love helping leaders and teams. I basically work with leadership teams at any level. It doesn't have to be a senior leadership team. Just create the conditions where everyone can do great work. So would love to work with any of your listeners.

Debra Coleman [00:29:34]:
Oh, thank you. And all you have to do, listeners, is hop on her website and see it. You will be introduced immediately to the beautiful work she does in the speaking space, and it is it it's just what you hear are hearing here. You know, this is Minette. So fantastic. I love it. And I will have links to all of that in the show notes, so please check those out. We will definitely have ways for you to connect and learn more about Minette and all that she offers in the psychological safe space.

Debra Coleman [00:29:59]:
Before I let you hop off though, miss Minette, do you have time for a quick silly bonus question?

Minette [00:30:04]:
Sure.

Debra Coleman [00:30:05]:
Okay. Alright. Well, as we've touched on here, we see and know that you are a busy lady. You are, again, a speaker, a consultant, and an author of 2 books, and you are definitely out there helping spread the education and knowledge about psychological safety, which keeps you busy. So when life gets a little busy though for you and and and little crazy, what do you do to help yourself reset and rebalance and sort of bring it back to ground 0 so you can continue living your best life?

Minette [00:30:36]:
Oh, that's an easy answer because it was like the first thing that came into mind when you asked that. I go for a walk. I'm a big walker. I walk the city streets and I walk on the trails, I'm a hiker. But really I find that walking clears my head. I often, when I was writing actually the second book, The Boldly Inclusive Leader, because it was a very solitary act of just sitting at my desk and writing, when I was stuck on something, when I felt overwhelmed, I went for a walk. And honestly, even if I was listening to music or listening to an audio book or a podcast, I'd still get these ideas just because I'm moving my body in nature or whatever. So I'm a walker and that's how I stay sane in this this really challenging world.

Debra Coleman [00:31:17]:
I love that. And do you walk alone? Do you prefer company or,

Minette [00:31:22]:
It depends. I've so a lot of the time I'm a solitary walker. So, like, during the week, I often just, like, I'll get an hour, an hour and a half and just go for a walk by myself. However, when I go out on hikes, I have a couple of hiking buddies, and then I'm then it's basically non stop talking for 2, 3, 4 hours while we hike. And those are also my favorite activities. But that's not when I clear my head as much as I just get to, you know, be with my friends in a beautiful spot in nature. But I I often do solitary walks to clear my head and get grounded.

Debra Coleman [00:31:51]:
Oh, I love that. I am a walker fellow walker myself, but I do have a fur baby I take with me. So I don't get to keep moving as much as I like because you have to smell everything under the sun, but, I can certainly appreciate that. Well, from one fan of yours to many more who are listening, please keep up that walking and continue to bring us amazing content because this has just been a fascinating conversation and I so appreciate your time.

Minette [00:32:15]:
Thank you for having me. I enjoyed the conversation and you asked really good questions, Deb, so that made it extra fun.

Debra Coleman [00:32:21]:
Oh, wow. High praise. I'll take it. Thank you. And that wraps up my incredible conversation with Annette Gordon. Thank you once again, Annette, for taking time to sit down with us today to discuss what psychological safety is and its importance. And thank you for joining us in this important conversation about psychological safety. As Bennett shares, psychological safety should be the norm in every workplace and not the exception of this.

Debra Coleman [00:32:49]:
It's something that all of us, whether we're leaders or team members, can and should actively contribute to. By being mindful of psychological safety, we can, I believe, create environments where everyone feels valued, heard, and more importantly, empowered to do professional work? If you're interested in consumer stories like this, be sure to visit the advocacy website, and don't forget to check out the show notes for all the ways you can connect with Lynne. You'll find information about her books and how she can help your organization's leadership take concrete steps towards a more psychologically safe and workplace. Thanks again for tuning in this week. Let's continue to make psychological safety a priority in our workplaces too. And as always, you know the assignment. Stay safe, be well, and remember, keep having this conversation.