From Cattle Rustling to a Daring Jailbreak: The Gripping Story of The Notorious Texas Swindler with True Crime Author Pepper Anne

Debra Coleman [00:00:10]:
Well, hello, my friend, and welcome back to another spine tingling episode of Have A Seat Conversations with Women in the Workplace podcast. If you are familiar with my show, you know that each week, I bring you conversations with women in the workplace who are just doing their things and doing it in a fabulous fashion. Many of them are come from various walks of life, have various career paths and journeys. My guess this week is what is of a particular career journey that I haven't had the pleasure of interviewing yet, which is a true crime author. As you may or may not know, I am a huge reader. I my perfect day would just be to sit on anywhere, beach, lakeside, poolside, couch in front of the TV, and just read all the live long day. So anytime this fan girl reader gets to share airspace with an author, it just is an amazing experience each and every time. But this is the first time I actually got to sit down with a true crime author, so I'm so excited.

Debra Coleman [00:01:16]:
So if you ever find yourself captivated by the mysterious allure of a gripping crime story, wondering about the hidden truths behind the headlines? Well, get ready to dive into the dark and intriguing world of true crime today with my special guest, Pepper Ann. As a 7th generation Texan yeah. Shout out to all my Longhorn fans out there. Okay. Fine. Aggies too. As a 7th generation Texan with a knack for unraveling the secrets of the criminal underworld, Pepperan is here to share her riveting journey into the heart of the Grayson County fives daring jailbreak. Really, daring jailbreak and the tangled web of deception in her book, The Notorious Texas Swindler.

Debra Coleman [00:02:06]:
In her book, The Notorious Texas Swindler, Pepperan tells the fascinating true story of her cousin. Her cousin, a cattle rustler turned con man. Despite having to rewrite the story three times due to hacking threats and having her life as well of her as well as her family's lives put in jeopardy, she remained steadfast in her mission to reveal the truth. True Texas grit here, friends. I'm telling you. So grab your detective hats and join me and Pepper Ann as we uncover the real story behind the headlines of the notorious Texas Swindler and the Grayson County 5. One chilling detail at a time. You will not want to miss this spine tingling episode, my fellow true crime enthusiasts.

Debra Coleman [00:02:56]:
So sit back, relax, turn up the volume on those headphones, and listen in to my conversation with Pepper Ann. Well, welcome once again to Have A Seat Conversations with Women in the Workplace podcast. Joining me this week okay. I have to admit, I'm a little bit fangirling because I am an avid reader, and I love murder mystery and thrillers. And so joining me this week, I have an author, a true crime author, miss Pepper Ann, who was going to tell us about this amazing novel she wrote. I cannot wait to share her story with you. Thank you, miss Pepper Ann, for joining me on Have A Seat Today.

Pepper Anne [00:03:36]:
Thank you. And thank you so much for extending an invitation for me to be here. I'm just so happy to to be able to talk to you.

Debra Coleman [00:03:43]:
Absolutely. Me too. Me too. Oh my goodness. I we allocated 30 minutes, but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to stick to that. But I as I warned Pepper and, man, the questions are just fast and furious. I am so excited.

Pepper Anne [00:03:56]:
You know, when you get in a good conversation, sometimes 30 minutes just isn't enough. Right?

Debra Coleman [00:04:01]:
It isn't. It isn't. And as a book lover and avid reader and to have an author on the show, it's just I can't tell you. I'm just beside myself. I'm so excited to, because it's like, oh my gosh. I have a celebrity. I have somebody I just, like, was reading your words and now you're on my show. It's just so surreal sometimes.

Debra Coleman [00:04:20]:
But,

Debra Coleman [00:04:21]:
so

Pepper Anne [00:04:22]:
Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed I hope you enjoyed it. I really do. I I had fun writing it. So It

Debra Coleman [00:04:29]:
was amazing. And let me tell you, listeners, if you are in any way a fan of true crime, this book has got to be added to your library. Absolutely. The notorious Texas Swindler. Incredible story, and that's what I'm going to pick pen Pepperhand's brain about today. I I honestly, I don't think I've had the honor of talking to a true crime author yet on the show. So this is just amazing on so many levels. But, okay.

Debra Coleman [00:04:59]:
I will quit fangirling and get down to business. Miss Pepper Ann, so your journey into the world of true crime writing, I mean, it is really fascinating, especially because you your subject matter was your own family's history. So can you tell us maybe, for those who may not know, I know a little bit because I read the book, but, what initially maybe drew you to explore Bob Leach's story and, to to even, you know, go down the road of writing The Notorious Texas Windler?

Pepper Anne [00:05:34]:
Well, I had always had an interest in writing. I just didn't have a story to tell at the time. And I had learned a little bit about family history, and I'd heard about Bob Leach. And, ironically, a lot of family members who the older generation, my mom and all of her everyone and her her cousins and everyone, They didn't talk much about him because it was kind of an embarrassment if you have an outlaw in the family and all the things that he did. You didn't really talk about it. And here I come along. I learned the the history of him and what happened, and I started asking questions. And what made me want to write the story is because I started uncovering crimes that were committed by other individuals who were running around with him, and they're still out today in play.

Pepper Anne [00:06:29]:
And I wanted to tell the story because I wanted to put light on them. They're still committing those crimes. Some are even more heinous than what they were committing with him. And I thought if Bob is gonna be in prison, and he should be, these other people need to be looked at as well. There was not a serious investigation. So that's what sparked my interest. You know, as a family member, I thought if anyone's gonna tell this story, it's gonna it's gonna come from me. It's gonna come from a family member, and I wanna have the facts out there.

Debra Coleman [00:07:02]:
I I I am just I'm amazed at the story itself. You're right. And how the the investigate I mean, as a reader, I was connecting dots. I'm like, come on. Why can't the people who get paid to do this not see this? Or why are they sweeping certain things under the rug? Or why are certain people getting away with things? At least that's what it felt like to me as the reader. It's that's amazing. That's fascinating. And I think that it also for me also as as somebody on the other side of the book cover, as to write about your own family member, that maybe lends itself a lit to me, like, a little bit more because you're you're basically, you know, exposing what, you know, what everybody did, but it is your family's it's a part of your family history.

Debra Coleman [00:07:52]:
So I don't know. It's just it just takes on it just weighs a little bit heavier to me because it's a part of your family rather than I stumbled across this maybe as a journalist and I'm gonna write a story on it because it's maybe a passion project or a subject matter that's interesting to me. It's all of those things for you, but also it has a family tie. I just think that's amazing.

Pepper Anne [00:08:12]:
Well, I tell you, I had other family members, you know, back during the time when everyone was going into ancestry.com and they were checking, ancestors from, you know, years back, people who had passed away. And they wanted to know who they were related to, and I thought, well, here we've got this guy right here. He's been all over the news, and nobody really knows the full story. And everything I'd read online, they didn't have everything accurate. I mean, there were some bits and pieces that were, but the more I got into it, I thought, okay. While everyone's checking the past many years ago, I'm gonna see what we've got right here in front of us, and I think that's part of what sparked it. I wanted to know about our family history too, and I wanted to know more about Bob. And then once I got in there, I met him, and I I don't know if it's it's family.

Pepper Anne [00:09:12]:
You know? It's kinda hard to explain, but maybe it's not. With our family, if someone does something wrong, we'll we'll let them know. You know? We don't coddle them. We don't baby them. So our visits were probably on a side of with a little comedy mixed in because I would go in. You know, he's car incarcerated. He's serving 14 life sentences. And I would go into the prisons and the guards, god bless them, they were amazing with me.

Pepper Anne [00:09:45]:
They would sit there and and they would watch and they'd ask, you know, you they they would make this statement to me, you know, you take as long as you need. Well, you're supposed to have, you know, a certain amount of time, but I guess they heard me. They they heard things I would say to him. You know, I'd tell him, you know, you knew better than to do all this. What were you thinking? What you know, you know how your family is. We're that family. We do that. So I got the story, but I was also reprimanding him.

Pepper Anne [00:10:12]:
And I I guess I felt that was that's that that's my family there, and I wanna make sure he knows because his rearing, he didn't have the best rearing. You know? And I guess maybe I felt that he needed to hear my thoughts and boy did he ever. So

Debra Coleman [00:10:33]:
And do you think because you were family, it was received differently by him? Your conversations and your your reprimands, I guess?

Pepper Anne [00:10:41]:
I do. Yes. Yes. I sure do. Yes, ma'am. I'll tell you how I know. He had wanted to reach out. So there right about the shootout at the very end, you know, there was well, it was a standoff

Debra Coleman [00:10:54]:
Mhmm.

Pepper Anne [00:10:55]:
With law enforcement. And Bob had released the married couple that he and another individual had held in their home. And he worked with the authorities, and he got them out of their home safely. And, he wanted to write to the Forresters. That's the name of the married couple. And I told him I said, you don't just start writing to them. You need to send them a letter, and you need to ask them if it's okay for you to write them. And he did.

Pepper Anne [00:11:23]:
He did. He he asked him, and then he he, you know, he said, okay. I'm waiting for a response. So I think I think he listened to me because I am family. He didn't just move forward, you know, without thinking, if if that makes sense. I think he considered my opinion and thoughts.

Debra Coleman [00:11:45]:
Absolutely makes sense. I'm I'm trying to think if if from my side, you know, if if it were me, if a stranger came and said, I'd like to tell your story. I'm writing a book. That's one thing. But if a a cousin of mine or an in law of mine or a relative of mine came and visited me and said, I wanna tell your story. This has to do with our family history. I wanna hear from you. I wanna that would just mean a little bit more to me.

Debra Coleman [00:12:08]:
You know? And I might be a bit more receptive to talking with them and meeting with them and getting the talking yeah. I just yeah. Anyway.

Pepper Anne [00:12:16]:
Well, I I think you're absolutely right. And that was the problem is that his story has never been told. And he wanted his story told. He wanted the truth out there. And he knew I was gonna do that. He knew I was gonna tell on him and everybody else, but I was gonna make sure they knew the real story.

Debra Coleman [00:12:35]:
Mhmm.

Pepper Anne [00:12:35]:
And he knew that that's that was the whole reason of me wanting to write the book. And once he understood that, and he knew it right away, You know? He was open to anything with me. And but it took me a long time to write the story, but but I got it.

Debra Coleman [00:12:57]:
I can imagine. And I and also you touched on okay. So you touched on the open first of all, the very beginning of the book, it just grabs you. I was hooked. It was like a law and order or something. I mean, it was just, what? What? What? What? You know? What happens next? What happens next? You know? Oh my gosh. I've gotta figure out. That's what struck me.

Debra Coleman [00:13:17]:
You got me from the from the jump. Like, just the opening scene, if you will. And then yes. And then the ending when yeah. I don't wanna give too much away, but, like, as you touched on, you know, with, the final sort of scene there, at team he did the right thing in that there were a couple of things that he did right that shows that he had a somewhat of a conscience, you know, and somewhat of a I don't know. Maybe Maybe I'm being really naive, but he just didn't seem like a I I don't know. Like, how he treated the couple and how he held anyway, I don't wanna give him to a dream. I'm struggling, so I don't wanna give anything away.

Debra Coleman [00:13:55]:
But anyway, he seemed there were moments where I was like, you know, he's not all bad, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And I know that's probably really super super silly when you think of everything, but I don't know. He just showed, like, moments of humanity. There we go.

Pepper Anne [00:14:09]:
Well, you know, it's funny that you say that. A lot of people that I talk to say the exact same thing. So what you're saying is is nothing new. I mean, I've I've I hear it from everyone. Mhmm. I have family members when I learned the story and the more I researched and uncovered stuff, they told me your words are gonna be what tells the story. And you're not trying to convince anyone, but you want them to know who Bob Harrell is, and you're the only one that can do it. Mhmm.

Pepper Anne [00:14:35]:
And I feel that I did that. I feel like I succeeded in doing that. I wanted to put something exciting in the beginning because I I feel like if it's exciting, it's gonna grab people, and they're gonna wanna stay with it. And so it's important to me to put that scene that I did in the first part of the book. Because if you start talking about someone just randomly about their family, their background, people lose interest. They don't care, and I didn't want that. I wanted I wanted people's attention. I wanted my words to make a difference, and I feel like they did.

Pepper Anne [00:15:13]:
So thank you. That's a compliment, and I I appreciate that. Thank you.

Debra Coleman [00:15:18]:
Oh, absolutely. And it wasn't just the beginning. I mean, those first couple of pages, like, grabbed me by the collar and said, pay attention. Like, it was just like, oh, boy. Put the mute

Debra Coleman [00:15:27]:
the TV, put the drink down, and pay attention

Debra Coleman [00:15:27]:
to this because this is going fast. But throughout the book, this because this is going fast. But, throughout the book, you had those absolutely more and more of those moments where it was like,

Pepper Anne [00:15:39]:
are you kidding me?

Debra Coleman [00:15:40]:
Like, that's that was probably like the recurring theme.

Debra Coleman [00:15:42]:
Are you

Debra Coleman [00:15:43]:
kidding me? Like, I would turn the next page like, what? This person did what? They said, what? And, you know, what are you so that's so many of those moments where I'm like, wait. This is a true story. Right?

Pepper Anne [00:15:53]:
Oh my gosh.

Debra Coleman [00:15:54]:
Like, this is crazy. And it's, like, remind myself that periodically. So you have a real talent for just grabbing the reader, you know, but between the two cheeks and and with your hands saying, now what happens next? Wait for it. Exactly.

Pepper Anne [00:16:10]:
Thank you. Thank you. I told my editor, John t. I said, I want every because of Bob's life, I knew what he was involved in. I told John. I said, I want each chapter to be a cliffhanger if it's possible. I don't want anybody to put the book book down. So Yeah.

Pepper Anne [00:16:27]:
Thank you. I I it sounds like I did exactly what I was trying to do, and I appreciate that. That's awesome. That's the best compliment, you know, for an indie author. That's one of the best compliments we can get is what we're trying to accomplish and that I did. And I I appreciate that. Thank you.

Debra Coleman [00:16:46]:
Oh, absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. No. I I honestly, that is just so that was the recurring theme.

Debra Coleman [00:16:53]:
Just

Debra Coleman [00:16:53]:
I can't believe what I'm reading. I can't believe these people really did this. They really existed. But I now I know and can appreciate though that the story, you know, it is true crime, crime, hello, you know, so we're not holding hands and skipping through the rainbows on our unicorns, you know. They're it's there's some dark material, and and some sensitive and potentially dangerous you know, maybe, I don't know, protecting yourself or, you know, maybe, protecting yourself or, maybe ensuring, your safety maybe while uncovering some of these facts? Did did some some of your research and your journey in writing this involve any of that area? Like, just protecting yourself or did at any point, did you feel like, okay. You know what? You know? Is this should I just keep going? Is this a good idea? You know, that sort of thing.

Pepper Anne [00:17:53]:
Well, yes. There were a lot of things that happened in the process. My work was deleted several times, multiple times. I had to rewrite the story, at least 3 different times. The individuals I was exposing had hacked into my computer, and they deleted my work. Mhmm. Had a bug on my computer. It was it was awful.

Pepper Anne [00:18:16]:
Wow. And in the process of that, I have family members whose lug nuts were loosened on their vehicles, and it was scary. It was it was scary for them. It was scary for me. Bob had also received some, emails. Now now he's incarcerated, and he, at one time, had received letters, but they've, I guess, they've advanced in TDC, so they can now receive emails through people electronic mail. And he had received some emails from individuals that I was exposing for me to stop. And I included some of that in the book, and I had put that in the index.

Pepper Anne [00:18:59]:
I referenced it all. So, yeah, there there were a lot of people who didn't want me to tell the story, and they went to great lengths to make sure that I couldn't. In fact, when I first started this in the very beginning, and I had no idea what I was gonna uncover. I I just didn't know. I knew about cattle wrestling, and I didn't know what cattle wrestling was. I mean, my family is ranchers and all, but I it's not my that's not my thing. You know? So I had to learn that. But once I first got into it, one of the fellows that I exposed in the book at the very end, he had met with me, and he wanted he wanted me to write the book with he wanted to oversee what I was gonna put in the book.

Pepper Anne [00:19:43]:
And he came out and just asked me, you know, are you putting this? Are you putting that? Well, I didn't know what I was gonna put in the book. And I told him, I'm not doing this with you. I don't know you. I'm not doing it. And it seemed like after, he met with me, that's when the lug nuts were loosened on our tires. So, yeah, there there was some kickback from them. I've been to events. I've been to book signings, speak public speakings, and the individuals, some of them would show up, just randomly show up.

Pepper Anne [00:20:19]:
They'd follow me on social media to see where I was going. And what made me mad, they would do it if a family member was with me. You know, I'm not afraid for myself because I'm a pretty gutsy broad. Mhmm. But if my family's there, Mhmm.

Debra Coleman [00:20:35]:
But if my family's

Pepper Anne [00:20:37]:
there, I'm completely different. Mhmm. I'm like, we've gotta get

Debra Coleman [00:20:41]:
out

Pepper Anne [00:20:41]:
of this, not let's take this on. I've gotta get them to safety. And they're and I and I know where I get my guts from. It's from them. And they wanna stand there and try to figure out, let's handle this. Let's take care of this, and you can't do that. When you are dealing with people who are not quite right that are committing crimes like that, you don't know what they're capable of.

Debra Coleman [00:21:05]:
Mhmm.

Pepper Anne [00:21:06]:
And it's just not worth with my family being there. It's just not worth it to me. Wow. It's it's it's about getting them to safety for me.

Debra Coleman [00:21:15]:
Mhmm. Oh, I can't imagine. I I I can't imagine being faced with that type those types of choices in pursuit of your passion, which is writing and and telling the story only to have those, you know, lions at the gate, so to speak, preventing you from doing that or at least trying to intimidate you. Scary. And you are gutsy. You are. I mean, you you you yeah. Definitely a w

Debra Coleman [00:21:46]:
in the win column because look

Debra Coleman [00:21:46]:
at we're talking about the book now. So Yeah.

Debra Coleman [00:21:47]:
There we go.

Debra Coleman [00:21:47]:
Yeah. Wow. Unbelievable. It's nice though that it sounds like you had a wonderful support system around you.

Pepper Anne [00:21:56]:
Oh my goodness. I did. So there were times when I had to rewrite this story. There were times when I I would say I'm not gonna do this. This is the the second time. This is the third time. I I can't I can't do this. And my family, my friends, even strangers, they all said, you gotta tell a story.

Pepper Anne [00:22:15]:
You gotta get it out there. You gotta expose these people. If it hadn't been for all the people who supported me and believed in me, the story wouldn't be out there because I would have given up on it.

Debra Coleman [00:22:29]:
Look at that. It was meant to be. You were meant to tell the story. It needed it needed yeah. Wow. My goodness. And I as you said, cattle wrestling, this book almost has it all, and it does. It does.

Debra Coleman [00:22:43]:
It has. The cattle wrestling, the kidnapping, the shootouts, and not to mention the jailbreak. It's just I mean, listeners, honestly, if you're looking for all of that, it's here. It is here. I'm like, it's a western. No. It's a it's a jailbreak. No.

Debra Coleman [00:22:59]:
It's a you know? And that's one thing that stood out to me. Sometimes along the way in the book, I would think to myself, man, Bob really seems like an intelligent fella. And it just saddens me that he used that wonderful gift he had for not good when it seems like, oh my gosh. What could he have done and accomplished if he just would chose another path? One that maybe didn't deal in illegality in illegal behavior. But, so that's just one of my other many takeaways. I know I'm, like, skipping around, but that was just one of my takeaways. When you mentioned kettle wrestling, I'm like, oh, yeah. By the way.

Pepper Anne [00:23:34]:
Well, you know, and and and I I wanted to portray that. I I wanted to get that across in the book. It was very important to me. Mhmm. Bob learned at a very young age, and he got involved with people who would not let him go. You know, he got involved. The DPS state trooper is the one who got him tied up with everything.

Debra Coleman [00:23:52]:
You know, someone in law enforcement, you don't expect

Pepper Anne [00:23:52]:
them to do that. Right. Enforcement, you don't expect them to do that. Right.

Debra Coleman [00:23:56]:
And then

Pepper Anne [00:23:57]:
when he, got in trouble, he got involved

Debra Coleman [00:23:58]:
with people who paid his bonds,

Pepper Anne [00:23:59]:
and they would not let him go. Now I don't know if he would have got away. Let him go. Now I don't know if he would have got away from that lifestyle. He would have at least had a chance. And when these people paid his bonds, they would not they wouldn't let him go. They just wouldn't let him go. And so as much research as I've done for the story and as much as I've learned about these individuals, I feel as if Bob was not going to be involved in the life of crime, it would have been at that moment when they kept when when after they paid his bonds, it wouldn't let they just wouldn't let him go.

Pepper Anne [00:24:40]:
That's when he met his his then wife, and they got married by proxy. And she got him involved in that life of crime again. I have letters that Bob had written to family members when he was in prison the first time, and he had said he wanted to get away from that. He didn't know how to get away from people. He kept asking the DA and all these people when he was in prison the first time to help him because he was receiving threats from them. He was he was receiving threats from the people who paid his bonds. You know, they were telling him once you get out, you will get out. You're gonna be under our thumb.

Pepper Anne [00:25:23]:
And so I feel like if he hadn't have had that there, he he may have he would have had a chance to make smarter decisions. Maybe he wouldn't have got into it or maybe he would have. I don't know. But that would have been the time Mhmm.

Debra Coleman [00:25:40]:
For

Pepper Anne [00:25:40]:
him to step away from

Debra Coleman [00:25:43]:
it. Good point. Very good point there. Absolutely. In in some ways, it might be fair to even say he was also a victim.

Pepper Anne [00:25:51]:
I think in some parts of the story, he was, and then other parts, he wasn't.

Debra Coleman [00:25:55]:
Right.

Pepper Anne [00:25:56]:
I don't, you know, I don't wanna sound like I'm giving him a pass because he is a family member, and I don't want people to come away going, well, what is she doing? Mhmm. I do feel like there were times he was a victim, but then I also have met some of the victims of the crimes that he committed.

Debra Coleman [00:26:14]:
Yeah.

Pepper Anne [00:26:15]:
And it's kinda hard for me. It's right there on the line. I'm I'm attached to a lot of people in the story, the foresters, the I'm I guess I'm jumping around a little bit. I I had a hard time writing the very last chapter with Vincent and and Irma and that family. Oh, yeah. I talked to them quite a bit. We we had, they've since passed. The parents have passed, but I talked to their kids.

Pepper Anne [00:26:40]:
And, you know, I believe that they read the book, and they were each they liked it. And once I knew that I had their approval, that's all I needed. I I wanted to do it justice for them. I hope I did. I think I did. But they had a hard time reading that last chapter, the second to last chapter, and I had a hard time writing it.

Debra Coleman [00:27:09]:
I can't imagine what that must have been like for you to write it and for them to read it and to live through it, first of all. Yeah. I I I believe that. I really do.

Pepper Anne [00:27:19]:
We all cried.

Debra Coleman [00:27:20]:
Oh, gosh.

Pepper Anne [00:27:22]:
We all cried. But that's good. You know? Hey. My words made a difference. You know?

Debra Coleman [00:27:27]:
That's right. That's right. And maybe in a way that was a healing, you know, for them in some level

Pepper Anne [00:27:32]:
maybe to

Debra Coleman [00:27:33]:
to read that. Yeah.

Pepper Anne [00:27:34]:
Yeah. It it was. In fact, I had no idea, but me, going and interviewing Vincent, it was a healing for him. His family even said that. And it was kind of a healing for me. I wasn't there at the time when it all happened, but Vincent would always tell me to not be so hard on Bob. Wow. And I said, Vincent, I have to get my point across to him.

Pepper Anne [00:27:59]:
And he said, but he, don't be so hard on it. They I mean, they they kept that communication open. I mean, it's what this story has everything. You know?

Debra Coleman [00:28:12]:
Somebody making a movie. Come on. Netflix, if you're listening, come on. This has all the markings. Oh my goodness. But you so now you did actually touch on research. Several times you touched on, like, researching the the the facts and the story. Are there specific methods that you had to employ maybe to ensure the accuracy and authenticity of the narrative? I know that in the book, you know, you do put you source, quite often.

Debra Coleman [00:28:43]:
I mean, almost all the time, which is wonderful. But are there any, like, what research methods did methods did you use to ensure the accuracy and authenticity?

Pepper Anne [00:28:54]:
Well, when I did interviews with everyone, I would always record them with their permission. And I always transcribed the recorded conversations. And I always went on their words as best I could. I also interviewed individuals in law enforcement. I tell you something that what made me do this. The the reason I did the research the way I did is because there was an article in a magazine when all of this first came out. And the writer who wrote about this, about the standoff, the the jail escape and the standoff and everything, had commented that law enforcement, they were Keystone cops. And it made me so mad because I'm gonna be honest with you.

Pepper Anne [00:29:47]:
Once they discovered that all 5 of the inmates escaped the Grayson County Jail, they were working around the clock to bring them in. They had no rest. So it's important to me to use their words, and I feel like I did, about what happened. I wanted to prove that reporter wrong. I wanted everybody to see that what he wrote was not right. They were not Keystone Cops. They were professional, law enforcement men and women, and they were doing their job, and they did it right. So it was important to me to conduct my interviews and use the words of the people that I spoke to because they were the ones telling the story.

Pepper Anne [00:30:35]:
I I mean, I wrote it, but it was in their words. I think it was important to me to be able to confirm everything to do the index because I didn't want anybody to come back and say, well, that doesn't sound right. I wanted them to have the proof, so there was no doubt in anyone's mind of the story that I was telling that it was accurate. I tried to be as close to the facts as I could. I think I did a good job. I

Debra Coleman [00:31:07]:
It seems like you did. I mean, I am am not an an aficionado by any means, but from a reader standpoint, you you, like, you sourced it. You've said where you got this information from, And and that lends itself to the true crime crime story because those who are, you know, really into the genre, I'm sure, will absolutely appreciate all that sourcing that you did and all of, like, this is where I got this. This is the as a result of this conversation, the dates, the oh, man. It's yeah. Yeah.

Debra Coleman [00:31:38]:
So Well,

Pepper Anne [00:31:38]:
thank you. As surprised as as you might be, my editor was equally surprised because he would he would put in there, you know, you need to give me more of this. And I would give him the whole thing because I didn't know how much he would want. I didn't know how much people would wanna hear. And he would come back with, how did you know this? And then I'd give him more. So I think it was a combination of people They're kind of guiding me and telling me, you know, what people wanna hear. You know? How to make that story blossom. How to put it out there.

Pepper Anne [00:32:13]:
So, yeah, I I think I think it was the, the interviews, all of the records I got from the courthouses and the sheriff's department and everything. To me, that was that was important was to use their words or voices and then just kind of rely on the professionals that were helping me write the book. Those are probably the 3 main things I can, put that to of of why the story turned out so well.

Debra Coleman [00:32:47]:
That is fascinating. And and it's not and it's nice to hear there was a team and that, you know, to help to help you along the way in terms of keeping all of that in there and recommendations and oh, wow. It's just it's so well done. So well done.

Pepper Anne [00:33:03]:
Thank you. Thank you.

Debra Coleman [00:33:05]:
I don't wanna I wanna talk about, but I don't wanna give too much away because it's like, listen. I I don't I couldn't even do it justice if I wanted to. It's just an amazing read. And I know we're talking about real life and real life trauma and real life, real real true crime, of course. So I don't mean to sound too, you know, like, light hearted about it, but it really is just a fascinating story. And of course, so well done, by you and your team. Pepper and it's amazing. Oh, my goodness.

Debra Coleman [00:33:34]:
I I honestly, it has the makings for a movie. Come on. And you know what I'm big cowboys out there.

Pepper Anne [00:33:41]:
Well, that's right. A lot of people have told me that. And I said, well, I guess if someone reads it and reaches out to me, we'll talk. But, yeah, I've heard a lot of people tell me that this would make a great movie. I agree.

Debra Coleman [00:33:55]:
It

Debra Coleman [00:33:55]:
would. Yeah. It would. Exactly. I mean, I even I even have an actress in mind for Tammy. Okay. Okay. Never mind.

Debra Coleman [00:34:02]:
We'll just go on with

Pepper Anne [00:34:06]:
I have an actor in mind for Bob, so you and I are not too far from our thoughts on this.

Debra Coleman [00:34:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I kinda do too. We'll we'll have to compare notes. Someone get this book under Clint Eastwood's hands.

Debra Coleman [00:34:18]:
Okay. Okay. We need to just get it over to his camp.

Pepper Anne [00:34:22]:
Yes. We do.

Debra Coleman [00:34:24]:
Absolutely. Or someone who's like a Texas born and bred producer. Come on. This is your home state. This is your story. Let's do it. Well, as a successful female true crime writer, because that is what I am labeling you, you have navigated the challenges, obviously, and risks in bringing this story to light. So would you offer any advice to any aspiring female writers out there who are looking into dive into the same genre? How would any advice for them in as they just dip their toes into this journey of their own?

Pepper Anne [00:35:03]:
Well, the one main piece of advice I would give is to surround yourself with people who know what they're doing in the in the writing world, who can who can help guide you where you need to be. For me, it was an editor. Some people get beta readers. Get a great literary attorney. Find a find a PA. I have an amazing one. And then you just tell tell the story as best you can. Put yourself in places where you think that you might be able to learn a little bit about the story.

Pepper Anne [00:35:40]:
I had asked if I could observe at my local police station if I could observe the 911 calls. I did everything I could think of to learn about the lifestyle of, I mean, law enforcement, and I got to know some of the criminals. They even stepped forward to speak to me. Just implant yourself in a safely where you can learn as much about your story that you wanna tell, and do not give up on yourself. If it's a passion, if it's something that you want to do, don't give up. Just keep going. It's so important.

Debra Coleman [00:36:29]:
Don't give up. So important. I love that. Especially in that genre where I'm sure you as you admitted to, you had some moments where you were just going to, okay, white flag, I'm done. But you didn't up either. So you know of what you speak in that regard. So thank you for that advice. That's good good advice.

Debra Coleman [00:36:47]:
I think female writers right there have a challenge just boom because we're female, but then, you know, to dive into true crime as well, that's just another level. So I appreciate your insights on that.

Pepper Anne [00:36:58]:
Thank you. If it hadn't been for the people I surrounded myself with, I I would have easily given up. So it's important to have your support system there. I firmly believe that.

Debra Coleman [00:37:09]:
I love that. It's so important. I do. I it takes a team. As they say, it takes a village sometimes. Right? Good good advice. Yeah. Excellent.

Debra Coleman [00:37:15]:
We can't forget those on the sidelines. We just can't forget them. You know? They're they're there. Yeah. They're as much a part of the journey as our as we are. Right?

Pepper Anne [00:37:22]:
So That's right. Yeah. You wouldn't know about me if it wasn't for those people. So I always like to mention that it's it's very important. It takes more than an author to write a book. I I can I can say that, and and and it's very true? Yeah.

Debra Coleman [00:37:39]:
Well said. It takes more than an author to write a book. So you hear that? All you aspiring true crime authors out there, as you dive into your career, remember that advice. Excellent advice. You can't go it alone. You shouldn't anyway. Advice right from Pepper Ann who's been there. She knows.

Debra Coleman [00:37:57]:
Oh my gosh. This has just been amazing, and I have adored this conversation. It is fascinating. But where can my listeners find more about you and maybe any future projects you may have, Pepper Ann, or about, the notorious Texas Swindler? Where can they learn more?

Pepper Anne [00:38:15]:
Oh my goodness. Well, my website is the best place to go. It's, yeah, pebaran author.com. On the home page, all of my social, the links to all my socials are on it. I'm all over the place. TikTok, Instagram, anywhere, everywhere. You can sign up for my newsletter, and I am thrilled bits to pieces to say that I am working on a new mystery series. It's Penny Pearl, and it's based on actual crimes.

Pepper Anne [00:38:47]:
And I hope to have that out this summer. So that's my next project. I'm still working on true crime, but that's that's that's my next project, and I'm excited about it.

Debra Coleman [00:38:57]:
Oh, how exciting. Penny Pearl, did you say?

Pepper Anne [00:39:01]:
Penny and, yes. Penny Pearl. Uh-huh.

Debra Coleman [00:39:04]:
Penny Pearl. Neat. Penny Pearl Mysteries.

Pepper Anne [00:39:07]:
Okay.

Debra Coleman [00:39:08]:
Okay. Oh, neat. I love it. Okay. Fantastic. I will have a link in the show notes absolutely to everything Pip Brand just mentioned, linked to her show notes and all her socials. Definitely, I highly encourage you to check it out. And you know what? Even if you aren't, you know, a true true crime, you know, like, if that's not this story honestly has so much going on that it will I mean, you just you will just be fascinated.

Debra Coleman [00:39:34]:
You've just you've got to find out, like, okay. Where, what, and how? Like, how did this thing end up? And as you said, well, it's still really not over. You know? It's just the It's not over. I've had people ask me if I if I plan on writing a

Pepper Anne [00:39:48]:
a book, a follow-up to it. My answer is always the same. If a serious investigation is done, then I will be the first one to jump in there and write it. I will say this. Bob has not read the book yet. It is not allowed in TDC because I had written, specific details about the jailbreak and how it happened. And, of course, they don't want that in there, which I understand. So I'm in the process of working with TDC and finding out what pages I need to remove so I can get the book into TDC so it's approved and so he can read it.

Pepper Anne [00:40:34]:
So,

Debra Coleman [00:40:37]:
Wow.

Pepper Anne [00:40:38]:
He hasn't read it. He has

Debra Coleman [00:40:40]:
No. That threw me for a loop. Wow. Oh my gosh. I get that makes perfect sense though, what you said in terms of the jailbreak. I didn't even think of it. But if I'm in their shoes, of course, naturally. Oh.

Pepper Anne [00:40:53]:
It's so detailed. And I had a lot of people say, well, will you put why'd you put all the those details? In fact, Bob is well, he's he's probably upset with me. In fact, I know he is, because he can't read it, and I understand that. But my response to him is you already know what you did. I basically just wrote what what happened. Right. Right. But he's he deserves to read it.

Pepper Anne [00:41:16]:
I I believe he does, and I'm in the process of trying to get it Okay. Yeah. So yeah.

Debra Coleman [00:41:22]:
That makes sense. Absolutely. Good for you. Yeah. But oh, wow. I would never have thought of that until you said that. Goodness. Okay.

Debra Coleman [00:41:30]:
And I get from the jail's point of view, look, we don't wanna be giving a blueprint. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Pepper Anne [00:41:35]:
I don't wanna be responsible for No. Right. Uh-uh.

Debra Coleman [00:41:39]:
Oh my god. You think it's like, well, can Bob just have a coffee? You know, because like you said, he was there. I mean, so you're not giving any secrets away to him. It's like, give him a copy and then when he's done, take it away. You know? But I get it. I get it. That's just me, you know, on the outside looking in kind of observation. But, well, I'm sure you will get it in his hands one way or another, with whatever modifications you like you mentioned you had to make.

Debra Coleman [00:42:06]:
Wow. Interesting. Oh my goodness. Crazy. Well, Pepper Ann. I I'm so again, I'm so excited that you were able to have a seat with me and share a little bit of your journey and more of the tech notorious Texas swimmer with us. But as a busy lady, as we chatted before I hit the big red record button, you know, you've have appearances and you are running to and fro promoting your book. What what do you do? How do you reset and rebalance when life gets a little too much and you just need to kinda bring it back to center? What any activities or what do you like to do to just sort of bring yourself back to Pepper Ann again?

Pepper Anne [00:42:50]:
Well, I usually have to, kind of step away, and and I try to meditate. And I I walk. I try to get in as much exercise as I can because writing a book, you're you're pretty much you can become very sedentary, and I don't want to, I wanna I wanna constantly be moving if it's possible. So I I try to walk. I try to meditate. I enjoy reading. I enjoy getting out and visiting and talking to people. I try to step away from true crime as much as I can.

Pepper Anne [00:43:27]:
I try try to try to put my mind in other places and good positive places. I love positive affirmations. I love reading good positive stories. That's how I refocus and bring myself back to the center of everything.

Debra Coleman [00:43:46]:
I that makes perfect sense. It's all about balance. Yeah. You can't I think that's what we mistakenly think is that true crime novelist just eat, breathe, and, you know, sleep with it. Maybe to some degree, but you are a human being with other interests and, you know, and and things you'd like to do. So that makes perfect sense to find that balance there for you.

Pepper Anne [00:44:07]:
Absolutely. Yeah. You you definitely have to after reading all the true crime because it'll kinda drag you down a little bit. You know?

Debra Coleman [00:44:16]:
Oh, well, once again, thank you, miss Pepper Ann. This has just been a pure delight. And I I love that you are ensuring in your story, specifically in this specific story, the notorious Texas Windler, that we really I feel, anyway, as a reader, that we did get to hear the many sides and the many perspectives. And as you said, sort of like the facts, please, to form our own opinions of what right and wrong. You know, as as I said, well, there were moments when I kinda felt like Bob would you know? So I appreciate that your story definitely seemed give us the space to make our own choices while we were being entertained and enjoying the story along the way. Such a true talent. I I thank you so much.

Pepper Anne [00:44:57]:
Thank you. Thank you. I I appreciate that. I'm so happy that you enjoyed it. I do wanna say when I was interviewing Bob, he had made the statement to me that he's not the only one that should be behind bars. And I think that's what kept me going and what made me want to make sure I tell a little bit of his I will tell his side, but put a little of his feelings in there. So thank you. I appreciate that.

Pepper Anne [00:45:23]:
And I I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed it. You enjoyed the story.

Debra Coleman [00:45:30]:
Absolutely did. And he and I do have to I concur. I absolutely agree with Bob on that statement for sure. One person in particular who is anyway, I yeah. Yeah. So thank you once again though, Pepperan. This has been absolutely delightful, and I look forward to maybe having a part 2 to talk about your future books, especially the new, novel coming soon.

Pepper Anne [00:45:55]:
Yes. Oh, yes. Absolutely. I would love to come back anytime, and thank you again for having me. I had so much fun.

Debra Coleman [00:46:02]:
And that wraps up my conversation with Pepperan. As we close the case on today's episode, I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Pepperan for shedding light on the shadowy world of cattle wrestling and this true crime story of the notorious Texas Swindler and the Grayson County 5. From daring jailbreaks to hidden truths and untold deceptions and thievery, Pepper Ant's insights have left me on the edge of my seat craving more, and I know she has for you as well. But fear not, my fellow true crime friends. The adventure doesn't end here. Be sure to check out the show notes for ways to connect with Pepperan and dive deeper into her captivating stories and to be kept in the know when her new mystery novels become available. Thank you once again, Pepper Ant. It was a riveting conversation, and I know this is not the end of our journey in terms of the notorious Texas Swindler.

Debra Coleman [00:46:57]:
I, for 1, look forward to hearing more, about this incredible story of cattle wrestling and deception. It's amazing. And remember, my friend, the hunt for truth and justice never sleeps. So head over to the have a seat website for more intriguing conversations just like this one. Until next time, you know your homework assignment. Stay safe, be well, and remember, keep having those conversations. Until next week.