The Human Side of Leadership: A Conversation with Huong Bui & Angela Smith, Co-Founders, KaleidoWork

00:01.03

Debra Coleman

Wonderful. Well, here we are back again with another episode of Have a Seat, Conversations with Women in the Workplace podcast. And I am so excited because it's a twofer day. It's a total twofer day. um Joining me this week is Angela and Hung from co-founders and coaches of KaleidoWork.

 

00:20.62

Debra Coleman

And I'm so excited to have them both here with me today. They are going to shed a lot of light on organizations and workplace dynamics and So thank you both for joining me today. I appreciate you taking time.

 

00:32.13

Angela & Huong

Yeah, thanks for having us. Lovely to be here.

 

00:35.30

Debra Coleman

So exciting. um but It's not often that I get a two guests at once, so this is really, really such a pleasure. um Let's start maybe with um the fact that you guys are just such a powerhouse duo, as I said before we hit record. um And I know that a lot of your mission is to reshape how we experience work, which is just such a beautiful tie-in to my mission of the podcast.

 

00:57.75

Debra Coleman

So your work um seems to focus on creating human-centric organizations and healthier work cultures overall, which, I mean, let's face it, in today's workplace climate is just so on point right now.

 

01:12.20

Debra Coleman

um What does ah human-centric look like in practice, um and where do you see most organizations possibly getting it wrong?

 

01:24.39

Angela & Huong

Yeah, that's a great question. um I think that, you know, when we talk about a human centric workplace, it means that we are conducting ourselves and making decisions and interacting with each other um with the with the human at the center of it. And so that means creating space where individuals can show up authentically.

 

01:43.41

Angela & Huong

That means, um you know, not not trying to create a monoculture where we're all the same.

 

01:48.42

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

01:48.58

Angela & Huong

um It means celebrating individual differences and it means creating space where we can all contribute in our own way um and and appreciating that that is different for folks. So we are not all the same.

 

02:00.04

Angela & Huong

We don't all have the same capacity for work. We don't all have the same approaches to it. um You know, some folks work at different, they they have their most ideal time of work at different points of the day, um or they prefer to be a little bit more, you know, thoughtful and contemplative in their work as opposed to being extroverted and and being out there there socially. So I think, you know, when we talk about a human centric workplace, it means just taking all of that into account um and and celebrating that as ah as a necessary part of of bringing humans together in a workplace where we spend so much of our time.

 

02:36.89

Angela & Huong

Yeah, and I think the other thing that we we often talk about is um it's not an either or, it's a both and, right? So it's not productivity and efficiency or humanity.

 

02:51.45

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

02:51.49

Angela & Huong

It's productivity and efficiency and humanity together. We can get we can have all of that together. um The other thing that we often say also is instead of...

 

03:02.69

Angela & Huong

um work that, um sorry, work, life that has to fit around work, like, like a lot of us experience work as this kind of fixed thing, this non-negotiable thing.

 

03:15.56

Debra Coleman

and

 

03:15.63

Angela & Huong

And then and in some way, it's true, like, it is non-negotiable, we need to make a living, we we we all have ah a sense of purpose with our work, it is a very important part of of our life.

 

03:26.44

Angela & Huong

um But for us, it's also, let's think about how can we have work fit all around life sometimes too, instead of just the other way around. So I think those are kind of some of the major ideas that kind of shape up what we what we think about when we think about kind of a human centric workplace.

 

03:45.81

Angela & Huong

um I think you had a second part of of the questions around kind of where where organizations kind of maybe have it wrong. And You know, in our experience, it's, it, it tend to be unintentional.

 

04:00.30

Angela & Huong

um So it tends to be either, People are too busy, leaders just too stressed out, there's a lot of pressure that they're facing, and there's just only so much time and mental capacity and also emotional capacity um that these leaders are dealing with. And so sometimes they make decisions um either because they're moving too fast or they're not considering all of the factors and how it impacts the people in their workplace.

 

04:29.22

Angela & Huong

um Or sometime when you try to make decision that think about profit, productivity and human, it it takes more time, it takes more effort, it takes more intentionality.

 

04:41.45

Angela & Huong

um and people are just exhausted um and they just like can't have enough capacity to do it. You know, like that's usually where we see um things happen. We don't and maybe it just because who we like to work with. Right. Like I think our kind of bare minimum requirement to work with us is that we we need you to care about the human in the workplace. that that cannot that's a non That's number one non-negotiable for us. it's like we're not we're not in a business of trying to convince you as a leader to care about the human that you work with.

 

05:11.88

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

05:12.15

Angela & Huong

um But if you are a leader that you like, you know, I just don't know how to make it all fit. I don't know how to make it all happen. Then, yeah, let's have a conversation because it is it is a bit of, it requires time, it requires effort, and it requires intentionality.

 

05:28.01

Angela & Huong

Yeah, yeah. and And I think it's also when we talk about shifting perspectives, it it means helping leaders model a different way. um You know, we've we've often, i think, societally, we we celebrate kind of the hustle culture.

 

05:42.00

Angela & Huong

um Being a workaholic is a bit of a badge of honor.

 

05:44.79

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

05:44.84

Angela & Huong

um And and it it really creates this anti-up culture in a workplace. You know, if a leader is working all the time, um that sets the tone for the team. And so, you know, we we really focus on helping leaders identify ways that they can shift a perspective on how working productively can can go um and how, ah as Hung mentioned, life can wrap around work as well so that you're taking breaks and you're taking time to rest and you're not on all the time.

 

06:14.65

Angela & Huong

um And that can really kind of permeate through the team culture as well So, I mean, our belief is that it really starts with the leader. And that's, that's maybe where organizations sometimes get it wrong, because they're perpetuating this societal view on leadership.

 

06:28.20

Angela & Huong

um And that's also the pathway out of, of, of that kind of a circumstance, right, is is focusing on helping leaders model a different way.

 

06:37.97

Debra Coleman

So important, especially in today's workspace. It seems like to me, listening to your your wonderful answers, that I thought I would have, my hope would have been after 2020 that this might have, we might be having a different conversation.

 

06:54.33

Debra Coleman

it Because it just seemed like, oh everybody was so like really, you know, dialed in and and be empathetic and they want to make space for everybody and meet them where they're at. And it seems like we have slowly crept like into back into, as you said, this hustle culture.

 

07:09.38

Debra Coleman

and don't have time to think about the human side of things. Let's just get this done. And I can, on one hand, I can kind of appreciate that because sure, businesses are under and incredible pressure these days to, you know, produce and keep going and not fail.

 

07:23.27

Debra Coleman

But what does it have to be at the expense of ah your employees and their well-being? So I just, that's, yeah, very interesting to me.

 

07:33.13

Angela & Huong

Yeah, it's it brings to mind ah an idea of sustainability. So, um you know, if if a business leader, if a team wants to be really productive today, well, then you hustle today.

 

07:44.97

Angela & Huong

But if you want to be in existence and successful over the long term, which I would argue most businesses, if not all, want to be, well, then we have to work in a sustainable way first, um because you can only wring so much out of a dry cloth, right?

 

07:57.25

Debra Coleman

and

 

07:59.76

Angela & Huong

Like you can't, you can't work people to the bone and expect to have, to keep your, but your best and your brightest workers.

 

08:00.06

Debra Coleman

Right.

 

08:07.74

Angela & Huong

um And so, so, you know, we, we have to we have to focus on, on that piece, right? Yeah.

 

08:16.33

Debra Coleman

Exactly. Which is where you two come in to help bridge that gap.

 

08:20.73

Angela & Huong

Mm-hmm.

 

08:21.20

Debra Coleman

from a leader understanding that kind in concept to actually practicing it and implementing it. um But we're we're talking leader. So is it more like a leadership team? Because do do people and talent play into this as well?

 

08:35.48

Angela & Huong

So can you repeat the last piece?

 

08:37.11

Debra Coleman

like the human resources sex set um segment of a business?

 

08:37.18

Angela & Huong

and

 

08:40.91

Debra Coleman

I know leaders, you know, ah C-suite and the executive team definitely have buy-in, but do we also have to have like the human resources also sort of play a part in this?

 

08:53.26

Angela & Huong

Yeah, I mean, in our experience, HR, most HR professionals are there. Like we we don't tend to need to convince the HR team.

 

08:57.75

Debra Coleman

Okay.

 

09:01.69

Angela & Huong

Usually they are the one that are aware of this need, that are advocating for this.

 

09:06.37

Debra Coleman

Hmm.

 

09:06.53

Angela & Huong

um they Most of them are on board that that we work with.

 

09:10.88

Debra Coleman

Okay.

 

09:10.90

Angela & Huong

I think the at the end of the day, we chose to focus on the leader or the leadership team is because that's who the team interacts with. and And that's where the work experience is on a day-to-day basis. that that That's whose decisions actually have an impact on the people who are working and their experience of work on a daily basis.

 

09:32.76

Angela & Huong

um Good strategic HR support is super important. And we do kind of lean on um good HR leaders and in teams that we come in. But sometimes HR, depending on the size of the organization, the organization we tend to work with tend to be kind of small to medium sized businesses.

 

09:50.57

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

09:50.78

Angela & Huong

And um so sometimes HR support, just from um budget perspective, they have to focus a lot more on the operation side, you know, the payroll and the recruitment and onboarding and that that aspect of it. They don't tend to have a lot of capacity to think about how do we develop a team? how do we How do we think intentionally about what um organizational culture and employee engagement looks like? And that's where

 

10:23.82

Angela & Huong

we try to come in and and and complement their existing um HR support and in those ways. Because those work, it takes a lot of, I feel like a broken record, it takes a lot of time.

 

10:36.47

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

10:37.64

Angela & Huong

um and when you're too busy with um a lot of the hr but operations and a lot of very administrative stuff, it's hard to um to kind of have time to even think about this stuff, let alone trying to have conversation with the leader take to get them on board. Because I think it's, I'm sorry, I'm like bridging back to what you said earlier about, you know, why why aren't we further ahead after 2020?

 

11:01.33

Angela & Huong

i think it comes down to belief, right? Like we have a lot of this when we talk about one of the reasons why kind of I think our company is a bit unique is we take both a coaching and a consulting approach.

 

11:13.68

Angela & Huong

And with a coaching, we we kind of start digging into the belief level. We're not just addressing things, it's the behavior level.

 

11:21.48

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

11:21.73

Angela & Huong

Because what we believe

 

11:21.76

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

11:24.46

Angela & Huong

inform what we think about and what we think about influence kind of what we do on a day-to-day basis and so we can go in and we can tell people what they need to do differently but if we're not actually addressing what people believe about work what people believe about rest or productivity or boundaries or any of these concepts um the moment we leave

 

11:31.61

Debra Coleman

here

 

11:48.82

Angela & Huong

things going to fall back, right? As soon as 2020 over, people are going to fall back.

 

11:53.07

Debra Coleman

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

11:53.23

Angela & Huong

People only shift the behavior because they had to, right? 2020, because of the pandemic, a lot of us are forced into ah different ways of working.

 

12:02.17

Debra Coleman

yeah

 

12:02.45

Angela & Huong

But if people hadn't shift what they believe about how work can be done, where it can be done, how collaboration can happen, of course, we're going to have a slide back. um So that's why ah addressing it at the belief level is really important in our work.

 

12:18.43

Debra Coleman

Excellent point. I never thought of it that way, addressing it at the belief, that's sort of like at the root.

 

12:23.47

Angela & Huong

hu

 

12:24.09

Debra Coleman

Yeah, and then branching from there.

 

12:24.18

Angela & Huong

Yeah.

 

12:27.23

Debra Coleman

Great. i love Oh, we need this. ah but This episode needs to be a recommendation for every leader. They need to hear these words. These are very important. um ah But, well, let's slip so shift slightly, Angela's question.

 

12:39.42

Angela & Huong

Deborah, sorry to interrupt.

 

12:40.42

Debra Coleman

Yes.

 

12:41.89

Angela & Huong

I'm just gonna hang is just jumping up to turn off a dishwasher in the background. That's being very loud.

 

12:47.04

Debra Coleman

Oh, okay. No problem. No problem.

 

12:48.53

Angela & Huong

So i'm sorry.

 

12:49.74

Debra Coleman

Oh, no, that's great. Not a problem at all. I can appreciate that. Please,

 

12:53.14

Angela & Huong

Seriously. You know what? You something. can I just add on to what Hung said? Because I just had another thought and it ties to the HR side of things.

 

12:59.44

Debra Coleman

please. please

 

13:01.92

Angela & Huong

Hmm.

 

13:02.13

Debra Coleman

sure

 

13:02.84

Angela & Huong

Quite often what we see is that it's HR that's actually motivated to change course because they're usually the ones who are absorbing a lot of the pain in a workplace where burnout is running rampant, right? So that's where they're seeing a lot of absenteeism.

 

13:17.79

Debra Coleman

and

 

13:17.81

Angela & Huong

They're seeing a lot of turnover. They're seeing a lot of sick leave. Quite often they're seeing more conflict among team members because nobody shows up at their best when they're in a burnout kind of state or when they're in a highly stressed or chronically stressed state.

 

13:32.51

Debra Coleman

and

 

13:32.56

Angela & Huong

um And so we we tend to see h r and leaders um really motivated to change their their workplace culture and their approaches to work, um because they usually bear the brunt of a lot of the pain of of ah a workplace culture that just is is really promoting this this burnout state or this always on hustle state.

 

13:54.47

Angela & Huong

Yeah, sometimes they just need a bit of help connecting the dot. But once they see that that's that's what's causing what they're experiencing right now, they are committed, right?

 

14:04.65

Debra Coleman

her That's good. I mean, and once they see that and they're committed to making those changes necessary. um ah This is going to sound pretty crass, but it's almost like happy wife, happy life.

 

14:15.40

Debra Coleman

Like if you have, you know, employees that feel fulfilled and valued and appreciated, then that just I see how that can easily transfer and and over into an overall just better workplace experience for everyone.

 

14:29.62

Angela & Huong

Yeah, absolutely.

 

14:29.80

Debra Coleman

um Yeah. Yeah.

 

14:30.83

Angela & Huong

It's such a worthy investment.

 

14:30.93

Debra Coleman

yeah

 

14:31.91

Angela & Huong

But, you know, quite often we have to make the make the argument. You know, we we talk about, like in the traditional sense, human resources. Humans are the biggest resource of any organization. So why wouldn't we invest in them to to be around for a long time?

 

14:41.01

Debra Coleman

Yes.

 

14:45.52

Angela & Huong

You know, when people leave, you lose all of the knowledge and the experience.

 

14:48.36

Debra Coleman

yes

 

14:49.42

Angela & Huong

um that they, that they hold. And, and it also breaks relationships in the workplace as well. Right. So um yeah, there's, there's a lot to be gained from investing in, in people.

 

15:01.07

Angela & Huong

um That's our belief. And that's certainly something that we promote in every conversation we have, wherever we can.

 

15:07.29

Debra Coleman

Perfect. I love, see, this that's why your services and your experience is so needed these days. I guess it's wonderful that you have this, sir that you know, that you started this company, that you're doing this work, because and obviously you have clients out there who need and or want are seeking out this type of guidance. And so that's in itself good news, you know, that, okay, there are people that are willing to do the work and move that needle in the right direction.

 

15:30.26

Debra Coleman

um That's wonderful. But again, here we are, you know, having this ah same conversation because work is always is evolving.

 

15:32.11

Angela & Huong

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

15:38.89

Debra Coleman

It's alive. it You know, it changes. And I know, like you said, it's not static. And so um that makes sense to me. But we're Well, I'm going to shift gears slightly and um and talk and and kind of bring niche down just a little bit in and sort of put you both in in a court and the gentle hot seat and really sort of ah form question my next two questions around women in the workplace and how all of this sort of ties into their unique and individual needs.

 

16:06.33

Debra Coleman

um So, Ms. Angela, you're up at bat first. um You bring this really fresh entrepreneurial spirit to your work from what I see. And are there any status quo workplace norms or structures that you particularly love to challenge?

 

16:22.64

Debra Coleman

um Maybe ones that especially aren't serving women well. Is there any that kind of come to mind for you in terms of workplace norms or structures? Hmm.

 

16:30.64

Angela & Huong

Oh my goodness, yes. So many come to mind. um so So yeah, i I definitely believe in sort of this creative um view on how work can be done. And yes, it's probably fueled by a bit of my entrepreneurial spirit.

 

16:47.94

Angela & Huong

um I don't believe that everyone can work Monday to Friday, nine to five, I think that that schedule of work is based on very, very old um kind of preconceived notions of the ideal worker.

 

17:00.87

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

17:01.13

Angela & Huong

ah The reality is life shows up at 11 o'clock a.m. It shows up at lunchtime. It shows up at tooth. It like you cannot plan when life happens. You know, if you're if you're a parent, you can't plan when a kid is sick.

 

17:16.18

Angela & Huong

um If you're a homeowner, you can't plan when something breaks down. If you're a human, you can't plan when you're sick. um And so I think that the entire schedule of work is something that I love challenging.

 

17:28.04

Angela & Huong

um You know, personally, i i thrive in a flexible work schedule.

 

17:33.65

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

17:33.88

Angela & Huong

So I don't actually work one full time job I work a few jobs, actually, that allow me to to kind of bring my best when I'm at my best. um Now, it doesn't mean that I just work whenever I want. Of course, I have to show up and and, you know, attend meetings when others are there and I need to collaborate with the people I'm working with. But I have autonomy um and choice in terms of when I do that.

 

17:57.53

Angela & Huong

um And that allows me to make decisions in the moment that I need to so that I can prioritize on an ongoing basis. ah So that's definitely something that I love challenging other companies to think of too, and and maybe take themselves off of autopilot and in the way of, you know, this is just always how we've done things and really ask themselves, you know, what if you were to get even better out of your workers um considering a a four day work week or a more flexible work arrangement where they have a little bit more choice in terms of the hours that they that they work so that they can manage school transportation or whatever that might be.

 

18:31.65

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

18:31.82

Angela & Huong

um So I think schedule of work is something that I i definitely challenge. um the other The other kind of workplace status quo that stands out to me is sort of this model of of of leadership and what the the best style of leadership is.

 

18:48.48

Angela & Huong

You know, in the past, it was always that authoritative, um you know, giving directions, decisive um leader in a very hierarchical structure. um I actually think that there's so much space for leaders who are more facilitative, who are more collaborative, um who model you know healthy boundaries in the workplace um and who really embrace differences on the team.

 

19:12.79

Angela & Huong

And so you know the leader who admits when they don't know an answer creates space for others to provide the answers. um A leader who is willing to be vulnerable gives permission to others to show up with vulnerability too.

 

19:27.11

Angela & Huong

um And so I think that we're starting to see shifts in what the what the best leadership style is. And we're starting to realize that it's actually a whole spectrum of leadership um and and that there's a whole space of of aspects of leadership that can create really healthy cultures and healthy teams.

 

19:45.08

Angela & Huong

um So that's another one I like to look at is kind of the softer approach to leadership um and how does that support the humans on the team? And how can we kind of amplify those those success stories um and create more role models of that type of leadership?

 

19:59.71

Angela & Huong

and So those are two ah status quo kind of workplace things that I like to i like to challenge or question. There are probably at least 10 more, to be honest. i do I love looking for creative solutions to things, but those are the two that that really stand out to me um and that were just top of mind are those two.

 

20:14.56

Debra Coleman

you

 

20:22.00

Debra Coleman

And you can tell because i picked up on it, and maybe because we're we're audio only and I can't see you, but you just lit up like audio. what yeah like you're just Your voice just lifted. well Oh, yeah, let me tell you. like you're just Here we're getting to the nitty gritty. So you can tell that that really fires you up. those as i know I'm sure there's many more, but those two particular norms that you like to challenge and discuss and you know kind of educate others on.

 

20:45.72

Debra Coleman

um Thank you, first of all, as a woman in the workplace for saying that the eight to five schedule is antiquated. I have been like saying that till I'm blue in the face. I just I work from home and I am I started in 2020 and I don't ever want to stop because it i and I am more healthier.

 

21:01.40

Debra Coleman

like physically, mentally, emotionally, just in a healthier place. um And I wish, yeah, that more workplaces would sort of adopt that, like, let's just, it's more fluid mentality in terms of working hours and what that actually means.

 

21:06.38

Angela & Huong

Yeah.

 

21:15.52

Debra Coleman

um So thank you for amplifying that.

 

21:15.64

Angela & Huong

Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, here's the reality is that those shifts allowed me to remain very career driven and very productive and, um you know, continue to drive down my my path.

 

21:24.20

Debra Coleman

Yeah, yeah.

 

21:27.28

Angela & Huong

If those changes didn't happen, I could have very easily been part of those statistics of women who dropped out of the workforce because it just was it just was too much.

 

21:33.31

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

21:35.02

Angela & Huong

So, um you know, if we don't want to lose all of the amazing skills that we have, um then then we need to shift the workplace so that more people can participate in it. And and women in the workplace, you know, those are those are two strong ways ah to to keep them there and not only keep them there, but help them thrive there too.

 

21:52.89

Debra Coleman

Oh, my gosh. That's a mic drop moment right there. that that's that That's the quote right there. Perfect. ah well Well said. Well said.

 

22:01.49

Angela & Huong

All

 

22:02.02

Debra Coleman

Oh, okay, Ms. Hoong, you are up. um Yeah, your turn.

 

22:04.34

Angela & Huong

right.

 

22:06.70

Debra Coleman

um Your coaching style, ah from what I have seen and read, is is described as gentle but firm, which I love. i love that combination um because I don't feel... i don't feel I sometimes feel I'm the exact opposite. So when I come in, so I'm very curious as to as to your as your coaching style in that way.

 

22:26.97

Debra Coleman

I'm not a coach, but I'm just saying my approach. um I feel like I'm a bull in a china shop. So when I come up against somebody who's gentle but firm, like that's fascinating. How do you do that? um So when you're working with leaders, ah specifically now, since we're kind of shifted to female leaders,

 

22:41.37

Debra Coleman

Is there maybe a limiting a limiting belief you often see women leaders carry that could potentially hold them back from stepping fully into their power?

 

22:52.21

Angela & Huong

Hmm. Whew. um A few things, actually. we We were just having a conversation yesterday about this. um A colleague had sent both of us an article on the topic of healthy boundaries, or it was the the story of this one woman leader who at one point thought that she constantly have to say yes. She could never, you know, not reply to email right away. And, you know,

 

23:21.75

Angela & Huong

say yes to opportunity to show up for her team and and kind of move toward this more balanced approach where, well, I don't always, not everything is urgent all the time.

 

23:23.98

Debra Coleman

Thank

 

23:33.34

Angela & Huong

um People can wait and no is a complete answer. And I was talking to Ange about this seems to, there is a gender difference that I noticed with people's ability to actually know that they are able to have healthy boundary, to be able to actually define what that is, and to be able to articulate it and enforce it.

 

23:57.53

Angela & Huong

There is something unique about, I think, the way that women's and girls have been socialized to take care of the needs of others, to be the one that are thinking and considering the needs of others and usually prioritize those needs above our own that make when we have conversation with women leaders,

 

24:21.83

Angela & Huong

it is usually kind of boiled down to something around their beliefs around healthy boundaries, right? So they'll have beliefs around um being a good leader.

 

24:27.30

Debra Coleman

Amen.

 

24:31.64

Angela & Huong

Like they kind of take it to the extreme, what Angela says about needing to be there and show up for their team. They they they feel that if their team are burning out, that means they have to work longer hours.

 

24:42.99

Angela & Huong

That means they have to work harder than their team to to take care of their team. um And it becomes this, like Angela said, this anti-up game where you're actually not taking care of each other.

 

24:56.56

Angela & Huong

You're just, in in a weird, twisted way, um reinforcing this pattern that continue to burn everybody out on the team.

 

25:03.85

Debra Coleman

Oh. Oh.

 

25:08.02

Angela & Huong

um I think there's the other thing that women leaders and conflicts was the other thing that I tend to notice is they are, most of them don't think of conflict as an opportunity or um they tend to shy either shy away from it because they don't want to ruffle feathers.

 

25:14.94

Debra Coleman

oh

 

25:28.20

Angela & Huong

They don't want to be seen as the difficult one. They don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. And they don't know how to actually engage in tension or conflict in a productive or healthy way.

 

25:45.82

Angela & Huong

And so there's there's quite a few there, I think. Yeah, but I would say the two around either boundaries or conflict are probably the two things that are holding women leaders back the most in my experience.

 

25:59.16

Debra Coleman

It's so relatable. Absolutely relatable. I think with a lot of coaches coaches and articles and just all the information out there, absolutely boundaries is seems to be just a real struggle for many, especially women.

 

26:15.22

Debra Coleman

um and yeah And I can totally see the intersection between that and conflict because to put up boundaries ah sometimes organically can create conflict because you feel like you're saying no to something, but really you're saying yes to yourself.

 

26:23.77

Angela & Huong

Mm-hmm.

 

26:26.30

Debra Coleman

is ah I think that's the saying goes. So Wow. that Very powerful. um Very powerful insight there. Absolutely. um Maybe one day we will be able to say no to something, create healthy boundaries and walk off and drop the mic and say, and that's all folks. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's how I'm living my life.

 

26:46.17

Angela & Huong

Yeah.

 

26:46.28

Debra Coleman

um Yeah.

 

26:46.78

Angela & Huong

yeah to drink We believe it's possible.

 

26:47.78

Debra Coleman

Right.

 

26:48.80

Angela & Huong

It's possible. Yeah. I mean, it's it like I said before, it's at the belief level that we need to work at, right?

 

26:54.70

Debra Coleman

Yeah.

 

26:54.77

Angela & Huong

People have to believe that um relationship can be strengthened.

 

27:01.21

Debra Coleman

Exactly. Mm-hmm.

 

27:01.85

Angela & Huong

with healthy boundaries, right? So that's one of the biggest fear that we encounter is people are afraid that they're going to damage relationship, that they are going to ah compromise their opportunities for further promotion or engagement or or career um if they have healthy boundaries.

 

27:21.60

Angela & Huong

And so if if we kind of dig at what some of those, but like what's behind that?

 

27:21.95

Debra Coleman

exactly

 

27:25.96

Angela & Huong

What do you think might happen? um Once we can kind of shift those beliefs, And kind of like, okay, what other belief can you try on for size? What what could you believe instead, right?

 

27:35.18

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

27:36.72

Angela & Huong

You know, like if if I have a friend and I know that that person will always tell me i have stain on my shirt or spinach in my teeth, even though it could be kind of an awkward thing to say to each other, I would trust that friend more, right?

 

27:51.21

Angela & Huong

So that's how conflict can actually enhance relationship for us or tension can actually... enhanced relationship if we actually know how to how to do it and we we do that on top of a very strong foundation of of connection and humanity um it can absolutely happen but yeah it it takes practice and it takes you know like I would record script for my clients sometimes or or, sometime we would just talk through like a lot of time people just need to find the language and the way of doing things and saying things that feels, feels right for them in in the moment or feel right for where they are in their journey. Because for us to just say, you know, you you should, instead of where you are right now, you should just always say no.

 

28:37.05

Angela & Huong

Like it's a very, it's a hard and far jump for people, right? So we need to work with people where they're at and thinking about

 

28:39.91

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

28:42.95

Angela & Huong

kind of what what's this incremental step look like and that's what I mean by gentle and firm like I will push you but I will also always I'm on your side like I'm always with you and my my investment is how do we find out what is that one little incremental step looks like for you but I would absolutely hold your feet to the fire to make sure that you take that tiniest little step um so that you can get to where you want to go

 

29:10.19

Debra Coleman

Love it. Love it. Absolutely. yeah that And it seems to me, one it is it is it in your experience, once that limiting belief is identified and talked about and brought out to the light, that it actually eases? It's almost like, what what are you afraid of? Let's name it. Let's let's face head on.

 

29:28.40

Debra Coleman

And then maybe in reality, it isn't such a mountain or a challenge as you might have built up in your mind.

 

29:33.81

Angela & Huong

a Yeah, it definitely does. I mean, in my experience, it's it's messy. We're human, right? Like, I mean, our beliefs are all intertwined with each other.

 

29:38.82

Debra Coleman

Yeah. Yeah.

 

29:41.94

Angela & Huong

And so we might uncover this one belief and then it kind of so tend to be, in my experience, cause a bit of ah chain reaction. It's okay, this one belief that I have tied to 10 other ones because of the way my parents have responded to me, the way my siblings have talked to me, the way teachers have treated me.

 

29:51.13

Debra Coleman

Yeah. Yeah.

 

30:02.16

Angela & Huong

um So what what do I think it's true? And so it's it's a journey and it's it's it's always an honor to go on that journey with folks, but it's not...

 

30:07.56

Debra Coleman

yeah

 

30:11.54

Angela & Huong

it's not clean cut like it's not like let's bring this out into the lie and like all of a sudden the cloud lift and everything is clear and easy um but it but it is like i think of it as kind of like a tower of rock like you take one away and they it they kind of start to shake and come kind of come tumbling down but yeah we would kind of just take one rock out at a time and and see what we can what we can do

 

30:32.03

Debra Coleman

you

 

30:36.69

Debra Coleman

Amazing. Love that. I love that. it's Yeah, you're right. It's transformation is also what, what I'm messaging I'm getting from you too. is It's a, it's a, yeah, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

 

30:43.64

Angela & Huong

yeah yeah yes

 

30:46.62

Debra Coleman

All right. Yeah.

 

30:47.92

Angela & Huong

yes

 

30:49.41

Debra Coleman

Oh, well, okay. You too. I have one more question before we wrap. um This has just been, I mean, I feel like a bobblehead. I'm sitting here shaking my head. Yes. So like everything you all are saying, it's crazy.

 

30:59.82

Angela & Huong

yeah

 

31:00.06

Debra Coleman

I love it. I know our my listeners will too. It's great. Good stuff. um Okay, so for speaking of listeners, if any woman is listening to this episode, and they're like, okay, Hoang and Angela, I hear you.

 

31:11.23

Debra Coleman

But I'm, so I still get stuck in those moments. Can you offer each of you offer just one tip to any woman who might be listening today that they could start doing now to help create a better experience for themselves at work? Just one, is there any sort of like neat small needle moving action they can do for themselves?

 

31:31.18

Angela & Huong

Yeah, I'll share what I did because I very distinctly remember my my first burnout experience and i know I know what I did to pull myself out of it. um And it was creating a list of what I wanted.

 

31:43.68

Debra Coleman

Oh.

 

31:43.70

Angela & Huong

um I was so fixated and focused on everything i didn't like that was going on in my work life and and the ripple effect that that had on my on my personal life. um And so my head was filled with negativity and what I didn't want um And I had no idea what better would look like.

 

32:01.98

Angela & Huong

And so one of the, one of the first steps I took was literally pen to paper asking myself, what do I want? um It was a tough leap for me. And so, you know, what i what I found that what came out was all of the things I didn't like. So I wrote all those down um and then I flipped them.

 

32:19.58

Angela & Huong

So if I don't if I don't want to have to go in the office nine to five, Monday to Friday, what do I want? um I want flexibility. I want ah more autonomy over my schedule. I want so I flipped them.

 

32:30.58

Angela & Huong

into the positive. And what that did is it gave me clarity on what I wanted and it equipped me with the the language that I could use to message to other people, I'm looking for this for myself, whether it was with my boss, my colleagues, um my network so that I could find other opportunities. um it It helped a lot just for my own sense of clarity and then also sharing it out to have other folks help me find find what I was looking for.

 

33:00.26

Angela & Huong

Yeah, and I say my number one thing is to have a conversation with somebody, right? So I think we always say this, do not suffer alone. We, the things that, um,

 

33:14.78

Angela & Huong

we say to ourselves is can be really mean and and so when people are going through a really hard time they don't think they're a good leader they're overwhelmed by work they're not sure if they're made out for this they don't know if they can get through this the number one thing you can do is actually share how you're feeling with somebody

 

33:20.41

Debra Coleman

yeah

 

33:38.41

Angela & Huong

and and choose somebody who you know has the capacity to hold that space for you. And if you don't have anyone like that in your life, then that's where a professional come in, like a coach or a therapist or you know a social worker or even a pastor at your church or and you know whoever did you have that that you know have the capacity to hold space, to just receive.

 

33:57.60

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

33:59.37

Angela & Huong

um Like a lot of the time, we we just see people think that they are broken. that they, you know, yes, they need to heal, but there there's no, they they don't need to be fixed. Like there's a difference between healing and fixing.

 

34:15.00

Angela & Huong

And so, yeah like have a conversation so that you know that you're not alone in this journey. And it's also how we can make a difference together, right? Like it start with a ripple effect of one person. Like our company started because Angela shared what she was going through.

 

34:33.42

Angela & Huong

but we We were meeting about something else completely different. And she talks about this idea of how many of us have things that we need to take care of our on the side of the desk and how impossible that felt.

 

34:46.94

Angela & Huong

And I still remember that conversation and it got a lot of thoughts going in my head. And I was you know in a newer leadership position and at the time and my kid was two and I was really struggling and I just thought I just need to get my shit together, excuse my language.

 

35:02.24

Debra Coleman

Oh.

 

35:02.50

Angela & Huong

um And I just thought it was all on me, but it wasn't. but like Angela helped me, was like, wait a minute, maybe it's the way work is structured that needs to be changed.

 

35:13.26

Angela & Huong

Yeah. Do you want to hear a funny story though, is that my list that I made actually led me to an interview with Hung for a job.

 

35:19.83

Debra Coleman

oh

 

35:21.09

Angela & Huong

And i was i was actually exploring it to see if it fit the bill. And so I met Hung in that interview with Um, and, and that's how we, that's how we connected. And guess what? I actually turned down the job opportunity because it didn't, it didn't fit what I was looking for.

 

35:36.49

Angela & Huong

um but look what I got instead. Like we've been business partners and friends ever since. And we connected over this shared belief that work needs to be better, that suffering from burnout or struggling in your leadership are very lonely experiences and they shouldn't be. Um, and just, yeah, there's a better way.

 

35:53.44

Angela & Huong

So, yeah.

 

35:55.48

Debra Coleman

oh

 

35:55.52

Angela & Huong

So always talk to people and share what's actually going on with you. yeah

 

35:59.42

Debra Coleman

yes Wow, such beautiful advice. And what and what a neat story. See, the universe has something else in mind, and but it brought you two together.

 

36:04.89

Angela & Huong

Yeah.

 

36:09.55

Debra Coleman

that But I love your message. is is is It's both empowering and speaks to, I love that you said, it's it you don't have to go it alone.

 

36:14.44

Angela & Huong

Mm-hmm.

 

36:18.44

Debra Coleman

You know, find someone in whatever that looks like for you, but also take some quiet time and write down. I love the pen to paper. I'm a huge pen to paper fan. um And you that right there could be very revealing.

 

36:30.21

Debra Coleman

Just taking some, in and you know, being kind of, little and you know, focus inside.

 

36:30.46

Angela & Huong

Mm-hmm.

 

36:34.10

Debra Coleman

Write it down. What are you after? and I love that you flipped it like, OK, well, what's the answer to that? That's great that you've identified what's not working or what you want, but how do you get there? So. And maybe that involves then part two, talking to somebody about your list and seeing how that is. So wonderful advice, absolutely doable. And um yeah, it's just, it's a real life balance check really is what you both offered. So thank you for that.

 

36:58.54

Debra Coleman

Well, this, I could keep you both on the phone forever, but we won't do that talking about balance and boundaries. And, um but where can my listeners find you to learn more about Colleado Work and what you are offering?

 

37:12.72

Angela & Huong

Yeah, so um we're both on LinkedIn and and so is our company. So you can find us at ColliderWork on LinkedIn. um We also have a YouTube channel where, you know, this is for both of us, we we work at a pace that works for us. So we only put out one YouTube ah video a month, but we make sure it's really good quality. And so if you are in for that, if you like what you heard today,

 

37:40.30

Angela & Huong

ah You'll find more of that on our YouTube channel, again, at ColliderWork.com. You can also find us on our website, just ColliderWork.com. um And we would love to hear from you. you know Subscribe to our newsletter.

 

37:53.35

Angela & Huong

We read every single message or reply. So um yeah, and then you know if if you just kind of like want to share your experience, we like we thrive on stories. I think stories have really powerful impact on people because it's relatable right so if you wanted to reach out and share your story what's going on with you or what you've overcome and how things have shifted for you over time we we would love to hear that

 

38:20.27

Debra Coleman

Perfect. Excellent. Angela, did you want to add anything to that at all or...

 

38:24.10

Angela & Huong

no she covered it

 

38:25.06

Debra Coleman

She covered it all. like Excellent. Wonderful. Well, I will have links to um to colloidal work and in the show notes. Absolutely. As well as ways to connect with Hoang and Angela.

 

38:35.88

Debra Coleman

um This has just been such a tremendous conversation packed with a lot of actionable, but very human centric to borrow your phrase, advice and guidance. And I thank you both for taking time.

 

38:48.12

Debra Coleman

um Do you have time for one last bonus? Silly question.

 

38:52.13

Angela & Huong

Of course, we love silly questions. Yeah.

 

38:55.44

Debra Coleman

Right. It's a Friday. Let's ah start the weekend off.

 

38:57.35

Angela & Huong

Yeah, let's have some fun.

 

39:00.59

Debra Coleman

Okay. um And I, you can answer at at your own pace or take it, take it one at a time. When life gets busy for either of you, how do you reset and rebalance? Is there an activity or something you like to do a practice to help sort of bring you back to square one and help center yourself again?

 

39:21.38

Angela & Huong

I, uh, I'll, I'll go first. I usually just, I go for a walk and I listened to a podcast. That's my absolute favorite way, um, to disconnect from the screen, which is usually where the source of stress may be coming from.

 

39:35.17

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm.

 

39:35.59

Angela & Huong

Um, and getting out in nature, moving my body, breathing fresh air. ah usually grab the dog and take the dog for a walk. Um, and I just let my mind kind of focus on something different.

 

39:48.92

Angela & Huong

um You know, really engage all five senses um and just take a break. and And the beautiful thing is, is that that is something that you can do in five minutes and 15 minutes and half an hour, however much time you have. But that's my favorite thing to do. That's that's my go to.

 

40:06.21

Angela & Huong

who

 

40:07.00

Debra Coleman

Beautiful.

 

40:08.25

Angela & Huong

Yeah, mine is my garden. Like, Ange knows this about me. spend a lot of time out in my garden. I'm slowly converting a very huge garden that is all grass into, you know, places to grow flowers and and food.

 

40:24.47

Angela & Huong

And so, yeah see similar with Angela, whether it's five minutes in between meeting or first thing in the morning, if I have a little bit bit more time, when when things feel really crazy, or when I have like something that's very emotional happen, I usually go out to my garden.

 

40:40.00

Debra Coleman

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

40:40.28

Angela & Huong

And the two favorite thing to do there is either to weed, because to me, there's something very meditative and satisfying about that. Or the other thing I would do is just water, like I collect rainwater, and I would use like a watering can and like physically go and just one can at a time and water in my garden. It takes a lot longer, but there is something about that where I can kind of get a little bit up close and watch my plan as I do that. And yeah, there's something that's very, it just put things into perspective for me.

 

41:12.18

Debra Coleman

you

 

41:12.45

Angela & Huong

um and And yeah, the garden has taught me lots and lots of of lessons about, um you know, we've talked about how ah when a plant doesn't thrive in the garden, you don't blame the plant.

 

41:25.71

Angela & Huong

You think about what environment the plant has been put in. Does it have enough sunlight? does is is it there's the Is the soy right for it? um Are other plants crowding it? right So it's the same thing in the workplace. right When a person is struggling or a person is experiencing burnout, we need to look at the environment. What is the environment doing to that person and what what needs to change there in order to allow that person to thrive?

 

41:50.69

Debra Coleman

Wonderful. Oh, you know, what came to mind is when you work with clients and when they get to the point where they are, you know, realizing they're coming full circle, I think the swag for Klyda work would be walking shoes and a potted plant. I mean, that is just like the perfect.

 

42:07.02

Angela & Huong

love Thank you. Yeah, that's a great idea.

 

42:07.92

Debra Coleman

Yeah.

 

42:09.02

Angela & Huong

We will be making some purchases this time. Thank you, Debra. Great idea.

 

42:13.76

Debra Coleman

okay You're welcome.

 

42:13.96

Angela & Huong

Mm-hmm. yeah

 

42:16.11

Debra Coleman

I'm here. That's what I'm here for. That's what I do. ah No, honestly, though, beautiful messaging for from you both. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing, giving us a little insight into how you reset and rebalance. I love that question because I think we learn so much um from other women about what they do, and maybe it helps ah help ah give us some ideas.

 

42:33.68

Debra Coleman

Yeah. Most importantly, thank you both for sharing your insights and expertise on how to shift our perspectives when it comes to work and maybe both from a leader standpoint and as an individual contributor, what we can do to just make the workplace just overall overall but healthier for us, mind, body, and soul.

 

42:51.03

Debra Coleman

So I really appreciate you both taking the time.

 

42:54.10

Angela & Huong

Yeah, thanks for having us. It's a topic we we love talking about. So thanks for giving us an opportunity to to talk about it this morning. Yeah, and thanks for all of your very insightful question. I love the research that you've done into us and our work and our company and and come very prepared with some you know to ask the question that that clearly show that you've done your homework. We really appreciate that.

 

43:16.57

Debra Coleman

Oh, you are more than welcome. Absolutely. And good luck on your YouTube channel. Absolutely. As a fellow content creator, I get it. And um I celebrate it monthly, weekly, doesn't matter. At least you're putting something out there. So that's fantastic. Good luck on that.

 

43:29.60

Angela & Huong

Thank you.